All about 78's....Tunes, Turntables, Technology

I find that, with 78s, you don't want the tracking force too low. This is why I am using magnetic carts that can track at 4 or 5 grams. The old ceramic carts will usually track fine somewhere between 4 and 7 grams and that is entirely suitable IMHO. Biggest problem with ceramics is to get the loading right. They need a high impedance input, not the usual line inputs on modern amps, or else bass response will suffer.

Edit: I just checked back and found the picture of the player you were talking about. I now see why you were concerned about getting the force low enough. I think maybe the removal of the big older ceramic cart, and replacing it with a much lighter modern cart will reduce the weight somewhat and will help.
Yeah, we're not talking modern turntables here. This is a 1940's clunker with a huge metal tonearm and crystal cartridge that usually tracked in OUNCES. Just replacing the original crystal cartridge with a lighter ceramic isn't always enough to keep from collapsing the the cartridge's suspension if there is no way to make the arm lighter. If that's the case, you are forced to have the original cartridge rebuilt.
 
I had a hard time giving away a large box of 78s similar to the ones you describe.

I had a listing on the app "let go" and eventually a collector came to pick them up and was grateful.
 
Those players from the 40's are very interesting. They bridge between the Orthophonic players of the 30's and the "modern" players of the 50's. Hard to modernize these, and I agree that your best bet would be to rebuild the cart. I've seen a few YouTubes on the subject, course I can't find them now.. You could replace the tonearm & cart as another option...but that's up to you & a lot more involved.
& yea, if those records you don't want are in really good shape then you might be able to give them away. Maybe a local record store?
 
Not a lot of action for me on the 78 front lately, but picked up a couple recently:

BB King - On My Word of Honor / Bim Bam on RPM
Sonny Boy Williamson - I Cross My Heart / West Memphis Blues on Trumpet
 
And two more:

Wynonie Harris - She Just Won't Sell No More / Drinkin' Wine Spo-Dee-O-Dee on King
Clarence Garlow - Wrong Doing Women / Trouble with My Women on Lyric
 
I really love 78's....except for the weight.
I've gotten rid of three collections in my life, always when it came time to move them.
Only kept about 10 out of the last purge.
I've no real intention of gathering a fourth collection, but I did just find a copy of Frankie Lee Sims' "What Will Lucy Do?" on Ace, and couldn't pass it up even though I already have two copies on 45 [which are actually harder to find].

This is the second version of the tune recorded by Sims, the original is "Lucy Mae Blues" on Specialty.
 
A comment and some history for you. Until around 1955-1956, most Blues and R&B on independent labels didn't get pressed on 45 RPM discs in anything but small numbers. in some cases not at all. 78 RPM was still the primary Blues and R&B format until the 1956-1957 era, when 45 became equal or the primary format. Most buyers of this music still had older 78 RPM phonos in wide use due to economics, and most jukeboxes in their establishments were still 78 RPM until that time frame, some didn't convert until as late as 1960. Chess and Checker didn't offer all their current releases on 45 RPM until 1955, only the better sellers and crossover sellers were on 45 RPM. Many independents like Specialty, Atlantic, King, Federal, Sun, Mercury, and many others got their Blues and R&B titles really on 45 in good numbers in the same time frame relative to 78 sales. Country music was heavily 78 RPM until 1954-1955, when 45 became the dominant format. Same reasons why also. Income and economics slowed the pace of these listeners converting to microgrooves.
 
That makes sense. I knew blues/R&B/country continued to be pressed on 78s for the reasons stated, but I never considered that 45s were pressed in lower numbers for those same reasons. That explains why many of the 50's era 78s I pick up are songs I've never seen on 45 at record stores.

And to 45rpmspinner's point, I do not look forward to moving my 78 collection, but when I do I'll do it myself and not have movers do it. I'm well over 400 at this point so the collection is pretty substantial.
 
I really love 78's....except for the weight.
I've gotten rid of three collections in my life, always when it came time to move them.
Only kept about 10 out of the last purge.
I've no real intention of gathering a fourth collection, but I did just find a copy of Frankie Lee Sims' "What Will Lucy Do?" on Ace, and couldn't pass it up even though I already have two copies on 45 [which are actually harder to find].

This is the second version of the tune recorded by Sims, the original is "Lucy Mae Blues" on Specialty.

I’ve about worn out my old Frankie Lee Sims Lucy Mae Blues CD. If you ever want to unload that 78 I’m here for you
 
One more recently:

Little Richard - All Around The World / Girl Can't Help It on Specialty

One my 78 honey holes has closed up shop, a bit of drama with it, but they're doing a blowout sale on Sunday. I'm hoping to find some decent scores.
 
Wow, been awhile since I've posted in here. I've slowed down quite a bit on 78 collecting and will probably pare some down or put some in storage shortly. At any rate, the recent pickups:

The Midnighters - Tore Up Over You / Early One Morning on Federal
Roy Milton - Everything I Do is Wrong / Hop, Skip and Jump on Specialty
Louis Jordan - Put Some Money in the Pot, Boy 'Cause the Juice is Running Low / Yeah, Yeah, Baby on Aladdin
Louis Jordan - You Can't Get That No More / Mop! Mop! on Decca
Louis Jordan - Barnyard Boogie / How Long Must I Wait for You on Decca
Junior Parker - Mother-In-Law Blues / That's My Baby on Duke
Babs Gonzales - The Be-Bop Santa Claus / Manhattan Fable on Bruce
 
Wow ! I just finished these 25 pages of fun and informative reading. Scoring nice condition and good sounding 78s is not an easy task, especially in this new millenium. Simply consider all the previous searching, which was already done decades ago by the then up and coming bands...

If you are lucky enough to have a 78 disc and 45 single of the same musician's title, there is no doubt the mixes will differ. They will probably sound very different. Chances are the "takes" or mix will be very different. You might even prefer the 78 !

When discussing how discs "sound," proper phono EQ benefits immensely. Judging from these first 25 pages, while some of us transcribe to tape or digital, many of us simply like to spin and play records. With well recorded 78s, there is a surprising sense of "aliveness" unlike any other record speed. Frequency response bandwidth may not be as extended as with later, slower speed singles, EPs and Lps, but the sense of depth, height and width is definitely alive and well with mono (or dual mono using our stereo) systems.

When playing and then recording, or transferring to digital for future playback, there can be a "trade-off" or compromise concerning factors like lower noise, musical instrument character and dynamic range. If we pass the signal from our phono pickup cartridges to our preamps, or the digital conversion process preamps, then through noise reduction devices or more processors, the resulting sound might sound better or simply cleaner, but definitely different. Then, we must also consider our preferences. Saving precious 78s from further wear and de-noising seem like good ideas. But, simply spinning these discs is a real thrill for many of us. Fortunately, we have a multitude of choices. Any serious collector of all speed discs acquires an arsenal of playback equipment.

For those acoustically recorded discs, usually pre-1925, some of us have very old, heavyweight machines with acoustical horns and very heavy tracking forces. While stunning and period correct, consider the recording process. The musicians gather around a horn mouth and play, while the horn throat uses a transducer to cut grooves onto a wax disc. Everyone knows the megaphone type, blasting midrange sound when speaking or shouting from the throat through the horn. However, shouting through a horn mouth and listening at the throat will present a sound which is anything but loud. "Thin" and "tinny" would be apt terms. Of course, playing 1925 or earlier discs, via acoustical horn equipped Victrolas, Orthophonics, Berliners, Edisons et al is a thrill all by itself. The horn acts like an equalizer...

There are many transcription engineers and recordists very aware of how to electronically "equalize" the acoustical sound for the better. However, that requires more signal processing, more gain stages and results in inevitable changes in musical instrument characteristics, sometimes for the better. Yet, if you simply wish to spin and play those antique discs electrically, using a much lighter tracking tonearm, there can be simpler methods. Perhaps, the most important ingredient is having variable phono EQ playback curves available at the preamp stage. With acoustically recorded discs, as well as many electronically recorded 78s, I have found the phono playback EQ curve known as "800" to be most useful. Here is a graph, derived from an advertising brochure of a Fisher 50-PR Variable Phono EQ preamplifier, circa 1952-1953, which includes the "800" EQ Turnover to illustrate how much more midrange is amplified during playback...

002.jpg

The "800" EQ often becomes my "go-to" curve when dull or thin sounding sounding 78s are encountered. Having this curve able to be quickly switched-in is truly ear-opening...In fact, once you have switchable, precision EQ networks available for playback, within your phono preamp stage, besides being able to quickly discern "proper" equalization, your playback enjoyment factor might quickly increase.....
 
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Tone controls, noise reduction devices and equalizers can certainly "help" the response of 78s. Before the new millenium, the famed transcription preamp was the solid state Owl 1. It has a wealth of Turnover and Rolloff switching, switchable low and high filters, including a unique high freq. "notch filter" which can be "tuned in" to remove offending noise without affecting nearby musical info. That extremely sharp slope, notch filter is a step above the British Quad, Leak, Rogers et al variable high frequency filters, especially when taking advantage of the switchable phono EQ.

There is a caveat, however, similar to my above post. The Owl 1 uses passive EQ networks, which can be fine with many 78s, but the Bass Boost/Turnover EQ is after one gain stage while the Treble Rolloff EQ occurs after yet another gain stage. Another gain stage after the EQ stages is where the filters reside. While this split passive EQ, combined with later stage tone controls and filtering, has its devotees and can provide good overall response, the "speed" or "action" of the instruments will have been altered. Yes, we can still enjoy the sound. Without having a comparison with another preamp, able to be switched in quickly, we can certainly enjoy most any sound. But, when you can quickly try another preamp, there is no doubt you will prefer one over the other.

One of the most versatile, classic, early stereo preamps is the circa 1959 Lafayette KT-600. The engineering team, including Stu Hegeman of later Harman Kardon Citation fame, really applied the phono EQ math in a very proper, accurate way. They supplied matched parts for each stereo channel, whether a kit or factory wired unit. That preamp also has immense drive in the line/tone stages as well, able to drive any amp you can think of trying. The phono stage is fantastic and was my reference for more than a few years. Many audio folks prefer that preamp over the world reference tube preamp, the Marantz 7.

Now, that is something to be pondered, especially considering a Marantz 7 now costs more than four times the best KT-600 you can find. Both the Laf KT-600 and Marantz 7 use active feedback phono EQ. Hegeman's Citation 1 preamp, circa 1960, uses split passive phono EQ. With the switchable EQ available on the KT-600 or Citation 1, these two are very worthy for our 78 playback. Regardless of which you might prefer, the usual full function preamp's Hi and Lo filtering and tone controls then reside between and after more gain stages. Are there any classic or newer multi-EQ phono preamps designed with consideration of their number of gain/control stages ? Compromises are inherent...the nature of the beast...
 
I think another point to make with EQ on 78's is the importance of rotational speed. Playing the record back at the speed it was recorded will help make the noise reduction and EQ curves more effective as well. Let me give you an example:
If an acoustic record from 1910 was recorded at 67rpm and not 78rpm that means there is a 14% difference. So if that record had a 500hz, 1khz, & 10Khz signal on it then it would move those frequencies higher by a factor of 14%. The 500hz signal is now 570hz, the 1khz signal is now 1.14khz and the 10khz is 11.4khz. The difference: 500 - 570 = 70hz, 1khz - 1.14khz = 140hz, 10khz - 11.4khz = 1.4khz. Sliding slope up, the higher the frequency recorded, and the faster you spin it, the higher it increases. If the disc is played back at 67rpm, all the frequencies on the disc line up as recorded and it makes pre-amp EQ easier and will provide a better and more accurate frequency response. If you EQ the same record at 78rpm then the rolloff and bass boost are applied to frequencies they shouldn't be and it makes the recording sound tinny. And any noise reduction will try to eliminate noise but preserve the signal...the better the signal is reproduced from the record the better the noise reduction can perform. Does this make sense?
Most 78's from the 40's & 50's spin at or just under 78rpm...maybe as low as 77.2rpm...but more commonly 77.6rpm or 78rpm.
Most 78's from 1925 to 1939 are from 72rpm to 78rpm. Closer range then acoustics but not as accurate as later records.
Any record from before 1925...well...all bets are off. I use my Victrola to determine the speed because you can adjust from dead stop to full open (well over 80rpm). Sometimes my AT-120P doesn't go slow enough to reproduce playback on these early discs correctly.
Anything below 150hz should be completely eliminated, and a 12db rolloff between 4k-6k ish should work for most records up to the late 40's. Having the correct playback speed and a pre-amp with options to shape the signals (different roll off points, bass boost points, bypass...etc) greatly improves the listening experience....at least I think so.
 
Very interesting and thought provoking, ttbccw...

With the examples you posted, the Turnover and Rolloff transition points (asymptotes) would change drastically at the beginning of the high freq. rolloff. Concerning the mid range asymptote, the turnover and bass boost "beginnings" are changed a bit. These might still be acceptable, because the transition freq. is higher than EQ design spec, which works out well. It is better to add some frequencies rather than lose them in transition.

Of course, if the examples were changed for higher speed recordings, like Edison's 80~ rpm, then transition frequencies would work out lower, possibly "missing" some musical info....

Then again, a very important word might be appropriate: adequate; as in "adequate enough for musical playback enjoyment." With the original recording/playback curves, + or - 2 db from spec was considered acceptable, within the industry. The shape of the curve, here is probably most essential, 6 db/octave slopes....

Researching mastering and cutting machinery, including studio/lab grade tape machines, there were no "ruler flat" frequency response curves during the 78 rpm eras. I have seen + or - 1 db, 40-15KHz as the flattest, studio reel to reel response. With so many listeners simply using their RIAA playback curve, it should not be surprising to anyone how easy it is to enjoy 78 rpm playback.

When I attend and exhibit at AK meets, antique radio shows and swap meets, I demo 78s with one of my period correct, auto-stacker, record changers, with no speed adjustment, but equipped with the sweet sounding, GE RPX phono pickup cartridges. I use my retro-resto upgraded preamps with switchable, variable phono EQ and low powered tube amps through small, full range 8 inch speakers in TL (Transmission Line) cabs, in "thrilling dual mono." Everyone who hears this setup is always impressed how good 78s can sound. This is proof and verification just how easy it is to enjoy 78s.

For critical listening at home, I use better grade turntables, like speed-controlled Fons, better pickup cartridges and speakers, but the same preamps, which proves to me that the resolution and musicality can only get better and better with higher grade gear....
 
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