Any sub recommendations?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by MajorInfidel, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. xero-D-hero

    xero-D-hero Super Member

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    2,073
    No,what I was trying to say is some folks have a stricter idea "what works" than other people will have,that's all.
    I would suggest keeping an open mind and be prepared to consider any/all options.

    I agree with this,stereo subs can absolutely work very well,but they're not an absolute requirement.
    Same with ported vs. sealed,there are good & bad examples of both.

    As someone mentioned:
    That about covers what I was trying to say.

    For an experienced "sub guy" it's pretty easy to pick & choose when shopping,for the new subwoofer buyer it's not quite that easy.
    It just takes some time to study up and figure out what sub(s) will best fit your given needs,and a bit more patience dialing it in.

    Good luck on the sub hunt.

    Bret P.
     
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  2. 432HzBob

    432HzBob AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I've used a Velodyne Micro-Vee powered sub for 10 years and really like it.
    It really rumbles with 1,000 watts (fair rated Velodyne quality watts) and is only 1 cubic foot in size.
    Used to use it alot until found some old JBL speakers that don;t need any bottom end help.
    I don;t plan to part with any of them any time soon!!
    I found a key with subs is to find something with High Signal and RCA low-signal inputs for greater future expandability.
    Props to the Dayton audio idea mentioned above as well. Heck, for $99 I might check it out as well.
    Dayton Audio has always been good quality above its pricepoint to me
     
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  3. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

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    Two friends have bought Dayton 12" subs (my recommendation) and are very happy with them.
     
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  4. MajorInfidel

    MajorInfidel New Member

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    Thanks, Bret.

    When reading older reviews comparing the SVS SB12-NSD with the SB-1000, it seemed at the time that the SB12 was the more expensive option. Now it seems to be that the SB12 is about $100 less expensive than the SB-1000. Assuming I have my facts correct, does anyone have an idea what led to the reversal?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  5. twiiii

    twiiii Super Member

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    I detest subs, but in your application a sub used with finesse might be just the right fit.
     
  6. StimpyWan

    StimpyWan AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    A good sub, properly set-up, only enhances the music. On live recordings especially, the deepest bass contains so much of the recording's hall ambiance, that's missed through most speakers. You can hear the sound field collapse, if a sub is turned off, during playback, of these types of recordings. Worth having, if done right (and not used as a boom box).

    As to sub brands, I've used M&K and the Parts Express Dayton subs, to good effect. A good friend just picked up a Rythmik Audio sub, and loves it. Very tight and controlled (since it's a servo sub). Even their smallest subs are worthy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  7. m6erfan

    m6erfan BT Subscriber

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    Why, if you dont mind me asking? They're just woofers...

    I'll add that I can't stand poorly integrated subs
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  8. m6erfan

    m6erfan BT Subscriber

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    Couldn't agree more. IMO, 'the trick' to good subwoofer integration is to not even know it's there. But turn it off, and like you say, the sound field collapses.
     
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  9. MajorInfidel

    MajorInfidel New Member

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    That’s a very apt description of exactly what I’m looking for. The devil, it turns out, is in how you get there. :D

    I’ve fallen so far down the rabbit hole in only 48 hours, it feels like I’ll never get out. Then, just when I think I might be starting to get some semblance of a handle on the subject, I run across a page like this...
    1742839B-DFB6-414D-B084-1B2858D5DE74.jpeg
    ...and then the reality comes crashing back down that I have no business asking you guys for subwoofer recommendations at all. I should instead be asking for recommendations on which Ivy League university has the best graduate level program to introduce me to the basic concepts underlying:

    1) defeatable parametric equalization,
    2) phase control in the absence of external delay time adjustment controls,
    3) 80hz/24 low pass slope settings
    4) the relationship between crossover settings, bass management and limiting upper end extension
    5) bass extension filters and damping versus roll off curves.

    :wtf: :dunno:
     
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  10. xero-D-hero

    xero-D-hero Super Member

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    That feature is mostly going to be used by folks that are using a calibrated mic & analyzing software for room correction or such.
    For a NOOB just set to defeat and move on.

    But should you find the sub integration process difficult due to room issues,and you need to do such,you'll be real glad that sub has that feature.
    That's one of those "better to have it and not need it vs. need it and not have it" sorta things.

    I personally feel you can never have too many adjustment options for a sub,just so long as one understands what their function is.

    Ahh yes,,,one of my favorite sub controls and the one feature many (most) subs DONT have...
    Per the text in that graphic,this control can be KEY to getting a sub to integrate seemlessly. ;)

    Phase in the context of subwoofers is just a simplified way of saying time correction.
    Most subs will only have a 0°-180° switch,and in some cases that's all that is needed.

    But IME rarely is that the case.

    That's because in most sub installs actual sub placement is a compromise at best.
    In many situations the distance between the sub and the mains is far enough apart that some time correction is necessary.
    And when that is the case,that 0°-180° phase switch is'nt going to cut it,and you'll be REAL happy you have an adjustable phase control.

    And yeah,that's what is meant by "time correction",to get the signal that is coming from the sub to be "timed" correctly relative to the mains.

    The further the mains are from the sub,the more likely time correction/phase adjustment will be needed.
    And the more precisely you can set the phase,the better the sub(s) will integrate with the mains.

    Ok,this one is one those things that a new guy is gonna go o_O:confused:.
    Basically it's like the text in that graphic says,for 2ch use set the low pass switch to either 50Hz or 80Hz w/a 24db slope.
    Big speakers go lower so those would use 50Hz,smaller speakers dont go as low so they use 80Hz.
    If the receiver/preamp/prepro has it's own controls for low pass,then it gets set to AVR12.

    That mostly relates to how the sub is going to integrate with the mains.
    The mains will have their "low end rolloff" point and ideally the sub's upper extension should blend well so there are no dips in the bass response.
    If the upper extension goes too high that's when subs often get "boomy" sounding.
    Too low and there will be a dip in the response and the bass response may sound "thin/weak".
    This is one area where each person typically has to tweak things a bit to find what they prefer.
    That's what the crossover Hz control is for.

    The rumble filter is intended for situations where too much low freguency energy is undesireable (TT useage and such).
    Those other filters are not a common feature at all,so one would just set those per their instructions.

    Of course these are somewhat simplified answers,but they should help some,and I'm sure others will chime in on the finer details.

    HTH

    Bret P.
     
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  11. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Active Member

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    Hmm, I'm surprised to see the Rythmik doesn't have any adjustment for the high pass filter. That said, most subwoofers don't, just as most don't have a variable phase control as already mentioned. But if planning on not running the mains full range this is another feature that greatly helps with integration, and why if absent this feature I run my mains full range.

    I'm sure there are more, but the only sub I've ever owned with an adjustable high pass is my Infinity, and it's external control unit makes setup so much more convenient.

    If considering used, these subs are rare but do show up from time to time. With an original MSRP of $2000 in 1991 coin it's quite the sub, but if patient can be had for less than a 1/3 of that. The driver surround is foam and usually gives up the ghost about every ten yrs, definitely worth refoaming, just be forewarned.

    DPP_006.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  12. MajorInfidel

    MajorInfidel New Member

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    Thanks, Bret. You’re an absolute prince for taking the time to help me unlock some of the mysteries of all that jargon.

    I noted that in the midst of those instructions, they state that using the LFE input terminal completely defeats the phase controls and crossover controls. Being as my little receiver has the single RCA sub out connection, is there any way of hooking up to a sub like this that would overcome this seeming limitation? It’s something of a concern insofar as, with my particular room layout, the sub placement would be, not quite, but almost twice as far away from the primary listening position as the main speakers. Figure maybe 14’ versus 8’, respectively.
     
  13. Drum

    Drum AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Don't get too freaked out about it all. Keep in mind that at subwoofer frequencies the room has far more to do with your sound than any of the controls. Remember also that we are dealing with not much over 1 octave for the subwoofer. Having said that, being able to switch between a sealed or ported sub (with a variable Q) will give you maximum flexibility. The HSU VTF1 will do that and is in your price range. Like anything in audio there is always going to be the lure of next price range up.

    Also remember the rule for subs.
    Size, Cost, Deep Bass... chose any 2.

    The only way to get good performance at a relatively low price is to have a larger cabinet. The cute little 1 ft cubes needs tons of power and equalization to work.

    I'll throw out another recommendation at a less expensive price range. The BIC 1220 at $180 delivered. If you really feel you need two subs these could work.
     
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  14. onplane

    onplane What! No Wake???

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    In addition to simplest connection method, using the high level inputs ensures that your sub(s) see(s) exactly the same audio signal that your mains see. That is, any and all phase shifts introduced by your power amp will be present at those high level inputs.

    As for physically connecting, you have many options. You do NOT need high quality speaker wire to connect your sub, because the sub draws no significant current. The cheapest lamp cord you can find at Home depot will work just fine.

    Next some folks will run good speaker wire to the mains and then cheap wire from the mains to the sub. You could also run cheap wire from the B speaker outputs to the sub and this gives you an easy way to listen without the subs when other family members are sleeping.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
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  15. m6erfan

    m6erfan BT Subscriber

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    All of this ^^^^
     
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  16. xero-D-hero

    xero-D-hero Super Member

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    Yep,dont use the single RCA reciever output/sub input at all,just use the high (speaker) level inputs on that sub instead.
    (summed L+R mono ~ it's not technically LFE ~ FWIW LFE is mostly a home theater/surround thing).

    That situation was discussed earlier in the thread by m6erfan IIRC.

    The other option would be to use either of the non-LFE line level (L/R) input(s) for that summed mono cable from your receiver.
    Then all the controls on that sub should funtion as intended.

    The sub is like that because they figure if one is using the LFE input(s) they're likely using an A/V receiver (or pre/pro) that has those controls.
    Many of those A/V receivers & pre/pros even have on board signal processing (DSP/room correction) that can take over all those functions.
    In those cases the controls that get disabled on the sub are largely redundant.

    Now before this goes too much further,if were talking about a specific sub here,it would help us to know which one.
    I say that as they all have different features & controls,and we cant give accurate answers if were working without that info.
    Right now I've been working off the assumption were talking about the one in the graphic above,but I hate to make assumptions myself.

    That aside many subs will have high (speaker level) inputs AND outputs.
    And some of those even high pass the outputs (low & high level) to the mains (this is hit-or-miss though).
    Theory there is the speakers will perform better if they do'nt need to reproduce the low notes that the sub is now dealing with.
    And whether that is true is largely open for debate.

    Anyhow,some prefer to use the high level inputs,others prefer low level,the rest of us dont much care one way or the other.
    Either can work just as well as the other providing the operator knows what they're doing.

    Me,so far I mostly use low level inputs (line level) & I tend to let the mains roll off naturally,and I overlap the sub crossover to that.

    HTH

    Bret P.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  17. Drum

    Drum AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    A bit of caution may be needed if running your mains full out with a sub. Bass heavy music at high volumes (especially with the tone controls or loudness engaged) may cause damage to your main speakers. If you use the crossover in the sub this won't be an issue (or less of one anyway - depending on crossover).
     
  18. m6erfan

    m6erfan BT Subscriber

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    Wouldn't that be the case though even without a sub?

    Also, I find a couple of things in systems with sub(s). A; loudness is never turned on, and B; volume levels are usually lower
     
  19. Drum

    Drum AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Absolutely, but the temptation to show off the sub by turning it up will now be there. In essence your mains will be holding back the sub and you won't gain any volume. Now if that is not a goal then it isn't as much of an issue. Also the sub may hide some of the signs of distortion from the mains.
     
  20. MajorInfidel

    MajorInfidel New Member

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    This is all helping immensely. Thank you. And yes, I do recall m6erfan’s instructions regarding the dual sub hook up. For a single sub installation via the high (speaker) level inputs, rather than sending two wires to each sub, would wires from all four speaker terminals (on the receiver) go to the four high level inputs on the sub?


    That’s certainly a fair request. As it turns out, I included that particular image in my previous post because it corresponds to the controls contained on the back of the Rythmik F12, a sub which I’ve become intrigued by through the course of my brief research. I realize it more than doubles my stated budget, but the Christmas bonus was fairly generous this year ;) and it seems like, in addition to being a sealed unit, it has some other features, like being servo driven, that would lend itself very well to providing the crisp, clean bass enhancement that a strictly musically oriented listener might appreciate.
     

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