ANY "WOOD BODY" GRADO USERS OUT THERE?

[heyraz]

Curious..What differences do you hear between the LO and HI output Sonata1s? And how do you step up the LO cartridge (SUT, MC stage)? Thanks.

I had been using a Signature 8 (that's all it says-"Signature Model 8", I just looked at the aluminum tube it came in) for years and decided to upgrade. The phono pre I was using was Grado's PH-1 set for lo gain. I liked the Grado sound so I bought a Reference Sonata1. My immediate impression was that it sounded very similar to the Sig 8 but more detailed. Analogous to how the gold sounds better than the silver, etc., etc. right on down the line. But the overall presentation was similar to what I'd been used to.
Grado's website said something like "If you like the Reference series, you owe it to yourself to try the new low output Statement Series", so I bit. And I liked it. The only trouble was with the PH-1 set for High gain, there was too much hiss for my liking, I contacted Grado about the hiss and they were like "what hiss? You're hearing things". I was kinda pissed because I was using their PH-1 with their LO cartridge and it was really hissy. My theory was that the High Gain setting for the PH-1 was made for their 1.5 mv cartridges (like the one Grado made for VPI) and that the new 0.5mv cartridges were pushing the limits.
So I tried a Hagerman Piccolo head amp, which I thought added it's own hiss to the signal. I tried a Hegeman Head Amp with my Hegeman Hapi2 preamp, still hissy. That's when I decided a single component with a lot of gain would be better than head amps or SUT's. So next I tried a Hagerman HagTech "Bugle" set for "Hi Gain". The Bugle was too hissy too.
Next I tried a Jolida JD9, which was better, but not perfect in its stock configuration. So I tweaked and modified the JD9 till I liked the way it sounded with my Statement Sonata1. A lot of work, expense, frustration, but I think records sound like they're supposed to again. The tonal balance is there, the low's are there and the highs are clear with barely a trace of hiss with my ears next to the tweeters. And most importantly, the sound doesn't get congested or noisy during complex music passages.

So how does the Low Output Sonata1 sound compared to the High Output Sonata1? Regardless of what phono pre I use, the LO Statement is clearer and more dynamic. The HO version has the same character or "Grado House Sound" but it's presentation is more like "a wall of sound" compared to the LO version. With the LO version, it's easier to pick out nuance and instrument location. I think it's a much nicer sounding cartridge and I only keep the Reference Sonata around as a spare.

 

[AvFan]

I'm reviving this thread after listening to my Grado G1+/MCZ stylus this morning after using some mid-higher end MCs on my XB and SP-25/AT over the last few months. I find my Grado a very easy cartridge to listen to. It fills up the space between speakers, it has plenty of defined bass, and doesn't have any sign of graininess. The last point is where the rub occurs because after using my MCs I know there is more detail than is being retrieved by the G1+/MCZ. I'd like to hear that detail but don't want any graininess that causes listener fatigue. I might be able to stretch and get a Grado Master V2 (Reference or Statement based upon preamp choices) but wondered if folks think the Master V2 will give me the detail I want without any harshness.

One additional item to consider is the Master V2 has a nude elliptical stylus (probably the same as the Sonata V2) that might be less sensitive to VTA than their ellipsoid stylus.

 

[rebellovw]

Extremely happy with my Ref Master 1.

 

[marcmorin]

I'm reviving this thread after listening to my Grado G1+/MCZ stylus this morning after using some mid-higher end MCs on my XB and SP-25/AT over the last few months. I find my Grado a very easy cartridge to listen to. It fills up the space between speakers, it has plenty of defined bass, and doesn't have any sign of graininess. The last point is where the rub occurs because after using my MCs I know there is more detail than is being retrieved by the G1+/MCZ. I'd like to hear that detail but don't want any graininess that causes listener fatigue. I might be able to stretch and get a Grado Master V2 (Reference or Statement based upon preamp choices) but wondered if folks think the Master V2 will give me the detail I want without any harshness.

One additional item to consider is the Master V2 has a nude elliptical stylus (probably the same as the Sonata V2) that might be less sensitive to VTA than their ellipsoid stylus.

The diamond on my Sonata 1 is very very similar to the diamond on my MCZ (original version, the latter ones are now bonded hyperbolic like the 8MZ diamond.) Listening last night to the Sonata-1 on my ES-1 (because I don't have my XA set back up yet) let me get kinda reacquainted with it. Not sure you'll get more of what you're looking for with a Sonata. Instead, you might look to find the MCZ body for that stylus, and then run it through the DB-8HG. I had the pleasure of having one here for several months, and it transformed the sound from my MCZ, and 10MR. And since you have a DB-8HG, if looking into the wood body, go with the Statement series instead of the Reference series.
Grado called a lot of their stones "elliptical" when they are anything but.

 

[heyraz]

I think a lot depends on cartridge/preamp synergy.
On my Harman Kardon T-65C I use a Statement Sonata1 (0.5mv output) through a Simaudion Moon 110LP set for 60db gain. Sounds clear and full, punchy with detail, better than my Reference Sonata1 (5.0mv) on the same table with the 110LP set for 40db gain .
My low output Reference Sonata1 doesn't sound so good with my Audio Research PH3 preamp (54db gain). Not nearly as clear or punchy. Not just a question of needing more gain, it's just not as clear.

On my Thorens TD124 with SME 3009 Series 2 (non improved), the high output Reference Sonata1 sounds great through the AR PH3. Maybe not as detailed as the low output cartridge with 60db gain, but the high output cartridge and PH3 sounds really musical and I can listen for hours without fatigue.

My final verdict regarding Reference vs Statement Series Grado cartridges: success depends on synergy with the other variables and both versions of the cartridge can sound wonderful. I'm happy to have both.

 

[JohnMichael]

I am using the Grado Sonata Statement 1 LO cartridge in my modded 18 year old Planar 2 with RB250 arm. The phono preamp is the Moon 110LP which is set for MC gain and loading for MM cartridges. I have heard an improvement adding 100 pf of capacitance. The cartridge is my favorite and tracks very well with the Michell Technoweight which is a lowered counterweight. I was not impressed with Grado's in the stock arm. The arm sounds better with the rewire and LO cartridges since it is a continuous wire from cartridge clips to the RCA plugs into the phono preamp. Imaging is great as is soundstage depth. Lots of magic with vocals.

 

[AvFan]

... Not sure you'll get more of what you're looking for with a Sonata. Instead, you might look to find the MCZ body for that stylus, and then run it through the DB-8HG...

Thanks Marc for the ideas on how to squeeze some more detail out of my Grado. I thought MCZ bodies were pretty rare. Gotta lead on one you can share? My DB-8HG is set at 10k. Will that work with the MCZ or will I need to have David H. modify the 8HG for a higher resistance? I can lower it with plugs if needed. The current crop of wood bodied Statement cartridges require 47k loading so I suppose I'd have to send the 8HG back to DB Systems to up the loading.

 

[marcmorin]

Thanks Marc for the ideas on how to squeeze some more detail out of my Grado. I thought MCZ bodies were pretty rare. Gotta lead on one you can share? My DB-8HG is set at 10k. Will that work with the MCZ or will I need to have David H. modify the 8HG for a higher resistance? I can lower it with plugs if needed. The current crop of wood bodied Statement cartridges require 47k loading so I suppose I'd have to send the 8HG back to DB Systems to up the loading.

Nah, the DB-8HG I had here was set at 15K, certainly didn't affect the top end vs 47K and 37db gain. I really don't think the low-out bodies are affected much by input load, unless you would go real low. Hekk, The G body you have now, Joe rec'd 10K, or higher. I think them stating 47K load as standard is due more to selling to those who have only a 47k input to begin with.

 

[ghamilton]

My Statement/Reference $1500 Low output on my Sumiko Ft-3 arm on my SOTA Sapphire.

 

[vaathi]

Know that this thread is idle for couple of months. I am in the middle of ordering parts for SUT for Grado Statement Reference. Not that I dont trust you veterans who use SUTs, but still wanted to check with Grado on the issue. This is the response I got.


gradoservice <info@gradolabs.com>

to me

Hi Baski

1. the Grado Statement Reference is NOT a mc design, it is a moving iron

2. using a step up transformer will work, we don;t encourage it , as we use the minimum number of turns in our coils, why would we recommend adding coils by in via a transformer

3. we would recommend the use of a quality phono stage will a minimum of 56 db gain and load into 47kohms

any questions, let us know

happy to help

 

[mjw21a]

My EAR 834P copy does not support MC. My only option would be a head amp. Thus far I prefer certain MC's anyway so not much point

 

[marcmorin]

Know that this thread is idle for couple of months. I am in the middle of ordering parts for SUT for Grado Statement Reference. Not that I dont trust you veterans who use SUTs, but still wanted to check with Grado on the issue. This is the response I got.


gradoservice <info@gradolabs.com>

to me

Hi Baski

1. the Grado Statement Reference is NOT a mc design, it is a moving iron

2. using a step up transformer will work, we don;t encourage it , as we use the minimum number of turns in our coils, why would we recommend adding coils by in via a transformer

3. we would recommend the use of a quality phono stage will a minimum of 56 db gain and load into 47kohms

any questions, let us know

happy to help

I never understood adding inductance via coils......the whole point I thought was to rid oneself of inductance, and the alterations/aberrations in impedance it causes.

 

[dmsheehan]

Okay.....been following this thread with some interest as I have a Grado Statement Reference 1 arriving for an audition very soon. I have seen some interesting , and sometimes somewhat conflicting, propositions here. I know that the ear is the final judge, but would like to get some thoughts on different options that I have available:

1. Emotiva XPS-1 which I use primarily for its flexibility when testing different cartridges and turntables as it allows for mm and mc connectivity with additional options for resistive loading. It is not a real expensive item, but punches far above its weight, has excellent reviews, and has been heartily recommended because at 60 db gain it exceeds the minimum gain requirement for the Grado. A Grado Statement user loves this combo, set at 100k load, and swears by it.

2. Fidelity research FRT-3g SUT which has 10x, 20x, and an MM bypass. I use this all the time for MM and MC carts. It is my preferred hookup going into a Les Box modified Yaqin MS-23b tube phono stage, and then into a Nikko Beta I preamp via the AUX port. This is what I would like to use.

3. Go into a Nikko Beta 50 set to MC at 47k or 100k resistive load.

4. Take a shot into an APT Holman, MM only, at 47k or 100k and hope that the 36db phono stage gain is enough

Thoughts? Marc....I know that you are the Grado guru....just wondering what your recommendation would be. Thanks to all in advance for participating in a very interesting thread.

 

[marcmorin]

Okay.....been following this thread with some interest as I have a Grado Statement Reference 1 arriving for an audition very soon. I have seen some interesting , and sometimes somewhat conflicting, propositions here. I know that the ear is the final judge, but would like to get some thoughts on different options that I have available:

1. Emotiva XPS-1 which I use primarily for its flexibility when testing different cartridges and turntables as it allows for mm and mc connectivity with additional options for resistive loading. It is not a real expensive item, but punches far above its weight, has excellent reviews, and has been heartily recommended because at 60 db gain it exceeds the minimum gain requirement for the Grado. A Grado Statement user loves this combo, set at 100k load, and swears by it.

2. Fidelity research FRT-3g SUT which has 10x, 20x, and an MM bypass. I use this all the time for MM and MC carts. It is my preferred hookup going into a Les Box modified Yaqin MS-23b tube phono stage, and then into a Nikko Beta I preamp via the AUX port. This is what I would like to use.

3. Go into a Nikko Beta 50 set to MC at 47k or 100k resistive load.

4. Take a shot into an APT Holman, MM only, at 47k or 100k and hope that the 36db phono stage gain is enough

Thoughts? Marc....I know that you are the Grado guru....just wondering what your recommendation would be. Thanks to all in advance for participating in a very interesting thread.

my opinion on using a SUT is the same as the answer from Grado Labs, why introduce inductance into the electrical circuit? Because the inductance is so low in the Statement coils, I'm not sure you would hear how 100K would affect the signal vs 47K, however GL still suggests 47K. As they did for the MCZ through XTZ (1.5mv bodies) however I ran them into a 15K load of a DB8-HG and found no roll off of the highs. Most likely because the roll off didn't start happening till 40khz or higher.....again due to the low-ish inductance of 9mH in those bodies.
Capacitance won't affect the FR of the cart, however it can reduce overall electrical noise in the system. 36db won't be enough gain.
Apt Holman and DB Systems were the "benchmark" of signal purity in the 70's

 

[dmsheehan]

Hi Marc.....thx for the prompt reply. I am still not sure what the best play is here. The SUT is out ....the APT Holman is out due to the 36db gain being insufficient.

Is the Emotiva a viable option? It does have 60db gain, MM/MC option, but the MM option does not allow for loading modifications that are available for the MC setting. The only thought that I have is that it may not provide the sound quality that I am looking for, but I will give it a shot and see how it sounds.

I don't know what the gain specs are for the Nikko preamp. I have a Beta I and a Beta 50. The Beta I has individual gain controls for Phono 1 and Phono 2 along with load options (22k, 47k, 100k) and a separate main volume control. Not sure what gain levels I can achieve with the individual phono gain controls. I will research this.

The Nikko Beta 50 has MC setting and load options of 22k, 47k, and 100k.

I really like the SUT going into the Les Box Yaqin MS23b for its beautiful sound. It's a shame that I can't go that route. Short of that, bypassing those two and using something else to connect the turntable with the Grado Statement Reference 1 cart into a preamp that will handle the gain and load requirements would seem to be the play.

Can you recommend a phono stage that would satisfy the requirements of the Grado?

 

[marcmorin]

Can you recommend a phono stage that would satisfy the requirements of the Grado?

DB Systems DB-8HG, with the real power supply, not the wall-wart. David can build it with what ever gain you want, and input loading you want.

 

[heyraz]

Simaudio Moon 110LP at 60db gain. Music Direct has a 60 day satisfaction guarantee policy.

 

[ghamilton]

Consider this....http://sutherlandengineering.com/products/kc-vibe/