anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

That's Ok John. I'm all embarrassed as I did the same with the 4000ii white for yellow.

Didn't see it was a 4000 ii vs the 4000 iii. Plus I put 600k instead of 600 ohms for a 66. Man, maybe we need two cups of coffee before posting?

dr

Edit Post Script: To: Bub, you may have to try a few aftermarket and see what you get for results. Just as Wualta said, it most likely will be a 66 clone and will do best with a 66 replacement/aftermarket stylus. I have had good luck with the EVG 4239 DEC (Japan) for the 66 & clones. Highly recommended.

Check resistance (diagonal on outputs for Empire). If it's 500~600 ohms, like a 510 or 615 ohm reading, it's going to be a 66 clone. If it's a 2000 clone, it will have a higher reading like 1000~1100 ohms. My 2000 ii reads 1057 ohms. My 66 E/X reads ~ 610ohms, and my ELX-20( a 66 clone) reads ~510 ohms.

As stated earlier, a mismatch will either add extra treble, or be dull up top and lose treble.

I've tried a few different ones for the 66 and again the EVG (Japan) 4239 DEC is outstanding. I've ordered a couple spares.

I haven't found a great replacement for my 2000 iii and I don't know if any "true" originals are available any longer. I'm hoping your cart is a 66 clone as I know there are replacement styli out there that sound fantastic.

dr
 
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Made by Piezo for Empire and, I believe, other companies. Equivalent to the Piezo YM-10E.

John

empire_250e.jpg


Untitled-4.jpg
 
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Made by Piezo for Empire and, I believe, other companies. Equivalent to the Piezo YM-10E

Leave it up to me to find some weird off brand Empire cartridge. ( I wish I was a real "empire" boy ).

A little up-date on the Empire 3000 ME/X sounding too bright on my newly acquired PL-518.....I'm learning..maybe....Anyway, I finally mounted an old M91ED/ShureTrac I had...only to find it had a weak/dying/dead left channel....depressing. I set up the 3000ME/X again and really stared analyzing the sounds it was producing. When recreating the system of my youth, I incorporated a Sansui RA-500 reverb, "a poor mans pre-amp of the day", The original system with the JVC VL-5, always sounded so good with it ( and still does ). I don't often engage the reverb function of it, just like the gain. To tell the truth...the 3000 sounded good, but just too edgy....if that makes sense? I decided to disengage the reverb while playing the PL-518......And "BAMB".....the high end slur,sharpness,edge are gone. I have to pick up the volume a little, but the sound is superb. Again Thanks Walt,John and all the others that are trying to teach this ole dog, new tricks........Russ
 
Great story about another stereo component of our youth. Maybe it only needs some contact cleaner or replacement electrolytics to sound better-- a project to add to your list.

As for the Empire 250 (I have one of its clones, an LTD 150, with a busted stylus), I imagine it's not a bad cartridge-- Azden/Piezo knew their stuff-- but it won't have much of an upgrade path, since, as far as I've been able to determine, only a basic conical and elliptical were ever officially sold for it.

It turns out to accept styli made for the rare-ish ADC SX-5 (another Azden/Piezo), and by using the RSX-5E elliptical stylus (Pfan 120-DE), you can convert it to moving iron and lower VTF fairly inexpensively. Note that if you try this, you'll have to wedge the Empire 250 so the front points down at a steeper angle.
14a.jpg ADC RSX-5E thakker.jpg

The best stylus anyone ever made for this cartridge, as far as I know, was the magenta AN-10VE, which is still only a 3x7 elliptical, though a good one: an Ogura Vital cut nude.
 
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Well DR, it looks like I have the 2000. It measured out at roughly 1100 and change.

I have to be honest, I'm not really very impressed with it so far. It's not very detailed in the mids and the bass is lacking. I listened to 2112 on it, then switched to my AT120E and recalibrated the table for the new headshell and it blew it away. Not even close. If it was a prize fight they would have called it in the first round.

I'm still going to putz around with it for a while but I'll probably replace it with another AT or maybe a Pickering.
 
As I said earlier, from its color, your stylus appears to be a conical and, judging from the package, an aftermarket Pfanstiehl. Those two things are probably the problem. Pfanstiehl replacements particularly for Empires, are pretty unsatisfactory.

John
 
Well DR, it looks like I have the 2000. It measured out at roughly 1100 and change.

I have to be honest, I'm not really very impressed with it so far. It's not very detailed in the mids and the bass is lacking. I listened to 2112 on it, then switched to my AT120E and recalibrated the table for the new headshell and it blew it away. Not even close. If it was a prize fight they would have called it in the first round.

I'm still going to putz around with it for a while but I'll probably replace it with another AT or maybe a Pickering.

I have found it hard to get a good match up with the 2000 carts(or clones) and an aftermarket stylus. Some sound thin (like what you are describing) or too bright up top. Any of the original styli sound great with the 2000 if you can find one. Even an original one that is made for a 2000/ii sounds great on a 2000/iii. At least in my opinion.

One thing I've noticed, Empire and some tables need careful attention to setup. How many hours on the stylus? Is everything in spec? I had swapped out headshells last week and forgot that it wasn't the same as the other original Hitachi and didn't readjust VTF. I was running at close to 2.9 grams and the 66 e/x sounded terrible. After 20 seconds I just stopped everything and found my error. Double check your entire setup. VTA? I don't know. Wualta and Boreas (John) can help out with most everything Empire.

Hunt around and try to find something. I see I think Needledoctor has Bliss as a new supplier but I don't know how they work in a 2000.

I searched and bought a few and finally found a good match up with the 66 and aftermarket stylus. I've purchased a few for backups and should be good for about 6-8 years. I hope you find a solution. Empire can sound fantastic once you get a decent stylus. Seriously. I can't stop listening to album after album now that I have the 66 and clones all dialed in..

Good luck and keep us posted.

dr
 
A pitfall in setting up an Empire blob-on-clip-style cartridge is tracking angle, as DR pointed out. Empire made at least two different mounting clips, and if you get a cartridge clipped into the wrong one, your stylus's angle of attack (VTA) will be too shallow (usually) or too steep.

This can be kluged with a piece of plastic wedged under the clip just ahead of (or behind) the bolts/screws, but whichever way you achieve target VTA, when you look at the cartridge from the side, the bottom edge of the stylus should be roughly parallel to the record, or nearly so:
$(KGrHqNHJE!FJ!kJE)OfBSUHBDPf-w~~60_57.JPG Empire 999XE-X by dean man jim w S912E.jpg
...............................PHOTO: dean man jim
 
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Ok.....If the 3000 ME/X is a clone of 66 QE/X.....if I'm getting this correct.....can they use the same stylus......and or...which would be the best for each?
( that are available I should say )
 
Yes, the 3000ME/X is a clone of the 66QE/X and, accordingly, they both use the same styli, any from the Pfanstiehl 239 group, excepting the 239-DET. The best of these is the 239-PDE. Pfanstiehl sold two different Empire styli under that number, the purple S912E and the white S910E. The bad news is that both are very thin on the ground, especially the S910E. I've come up with two S912Es in the last year so persistence pays But I can't remember the last time I saw an S910E.

John
 
Ok.....If the 3000 ME/X is a clone of 66 QE/X.....if I'm getting this correct.....can they use the same stylus......and or...which would be the best for each?
( that are available I should say )

Same as what? A 66 with a 2000 stylus? Physically yes it will fit. But, you have to match up the correct stylus for the cart's impedance. A 2000 stylus may sound too bright on a 66 cart.

But for a low 500 to 600 ohm 66 cart, I find the 239 DEC to sound really great. (EDIT: I have an original Empire 239-DEC black, it sounds great. I have aftermarket copy, a 4239-DEC by EVG Japan. It sounds great. Slightly brighter, but -2db treble and I can't tell any difference. I tried a 4239-PDE and I didn't like it at all) At least on all my 66's and their clones like the EXL-20. I'm going to purchase a couple more as spares.

I don't think a 237 DEC will sound right on a 66 clone. I could be wrong and you may like it.

I tried a few different styli with the 66. Only the 4239-DEC by EVG (japan) sounded exceptional for an aftermarket, with little or no break-in. The 4239 PDE didn't sound as lively, maybe need to break in for another few hours.
 
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Yes, the 3000ME/X is a clone of the 66QE/X and, accordingly, they both use the same styli, any from the Pfanstiehl 239 group, excepting the 239-DET. The best of these is the 239-PDE. Pfanstiehl sold two different Empire styli under that number, the purple S912E and the white S910E. The bad news is that both are very thin on the ground, especially the S910E. I've come up with two S912Es in the last year so persistence pays But I can't remember the last time I saw an S910E.

John

John, I recently purchased more than a few to compare. I don't like the 239-PDE for my 66 or 66 clones. I really prefer the 239-DEC. I can't quite decide how to describe the sound difference but to the best of my ability I would say the PDE sounds too thin, not very musical, not enough deep bass when it should be there, and too much for the highs. Too bright. Can't seem to balance the sound out with simple bass & treble controls.

By contrast, the 239 DEC sounds balanced. Bass is tight, quick punch/transitions, balanced bass, mids, & highs. Sounds wonderful with a pair of Sony 7506 and only adjustment needed is a slight -2db or -3db on the treble since the Sony's have a bump at the high end. Running it through my speakers Altecs or Advents, I can leave everything flat and it sounds great. Can't do that with the PDE. It's easy for me to make subtle adjustments with the DEC and get some seriously decent sound.

I've been listening to a few albums every evening and can't get enough of my EXL-20 with the new DEC. I'm loving Band on the Run. Seriously has some great tracks.

I wish I had the same luck with the PDE...but sadly, it's going to sit on the shelf.
 
The 239-PDE under discussion is, if I'm understanding correctly, an EVG copy, with a color dot on the cantilever, correct? If so, we should probably be careful and adopt Pfanstiehl's nomenclature and refer to that as a 4239-PDE. That way we will hold the level of confusion down, even if only a little.

I know, the Pfan system is properly observed more in the breach than in the performance, especially by vendors. With Empire, the topic is especially fraught because of the Empire name being owned by a company other than the original Empire folks, and so on. With EVG sourcing out of Switzerland, the fraughtiness of the whole juju-flop situation is likely to become even fraughtier.

Sound is the thing, so if the EVG-Japan 4239-DEC sounds good, grab it while you can. We can pray for a rain of proper S912E styli somewhere over the rainbow, down the yellow brick road.
 
The 239-PDE under discussion is, if I'm understanding correctly, an EVG copy, with a color dot on the cantilever, correct? If so, we should probably be careful and adopt Pfanstiehl's nomenclature and refer to that as a 4239-PDE. That way we will hold the level of confusion down, even if only a little.

I know, the Pfan system is properly observed more in the breach than in the performance, especially by vendors. With Empire, the topic is especially fraught because of the Empire name being owned by a company other than the original Empire folks, and so on. With EVG sourcing out of Switzerland, the fraughtiness of the whole juju-flop situation is likely to become even fraughtier.

Sound is the thing, so if the EVG-Japan 4239-DEC sounds good, grab it while you can. We can pray for a rain of proper S912E styli somewhere over the rainbow, down the yellow brick road.

For my situations, yes, it is from Gary EVG-Japan-JICO (so says Gary) 4239-PDE white. Compared to same EVG-Japan-JICO 4239-DEC black, the PDE doesn't sound as good. Not horrible, but one way of wording it, sounds like the speakers are 40 yards away, like coming from your neighbor's house with front door open on a summer evening for the PDE. The DEC sounds beautiful. Like let's flip over that album and hear side two, and then play side one over again, and how loud can I crank this up without the cops coming over. That type of sound.

I also happen to have an original Empire 239 black (S906E) and it is almost indistinguishable from the EVG 4239. If these two sound great and very similar, my thinking is Empire probably had it right.

I know the PDE is supposed to be better. Maybe mine will open up but I played it for hours and didn't find it any better. I may try a few more from other suppliers but after talking with Gary for a rather long conversation, I think the JICO EVG 4239 (which is no longer) are really the way to go. Maybe it's just me and my personal preference. Just trying to help a fellow out.
 
That's what we're here for.
I wish you could have an original-genuine 239-PDE (purple or white) to compare. My experience with the 4239-PDEs I've tried, from a handful of different vendors over several years, is just like yours. They've never risen above "Meh, that's okay. Um, I think I'm gonna listen to this other cartridge over here now..." So I'm perfectly willing to believe the 4239-DEC sounds better. John (boreas) also has a original-genuine 239-DEC (S906E) and says it sounds jolly good, and I trust his ears.

It's hard to beat original-genuine Empire, no matter where a given stylus sits in the pecking order. It's frustrating that every once in a while, a generic comes very close, but that's all too rare, at least in my experience, and I wish I knew why.
 
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I have a cart with what might be an original empire 239 PDE. What color is that purple? Clear purple or solid?

I’m moving soon and have packed up a Sony tt. I don’t remember what was on it. Carts and needles are in a box. Tomorrow I will see what’s what.

I’m hoping that my luck will hold out on the DEC as I am going to get one more 66 clone for the last Pl-7 purchase. Maybe I can find a 66 with an original stylus.?

I wish I could have everyone over as I swap out carts and testing these aftermarkets. It’s night and day. I’m sad the white 4239 PDE doesn’t make the grade. Maybe it's the suspension as it is definitely different materials. The craftsmanship seems outstanding on both, everything from Gary I’ve purchased.

Heck, I ll keep the DEC a secret. I’m curious to see what Jico will price them here.
 
Could be a capacitance difference too. Keep at it and let us know what you find.
Ok......This is getting a little frustrating.....and exciting, all at the same time...lol.
I just ordered a 4239-DEC from VM. As per my previous post about my two different TT's, The PL-518 and VL-5...I really think these tables are voiced different (capacitance difference).
I'm going to try both these styli on the 3000 ME/X and 66 QE/X to see the difference for myself.
I know they are both EVG, but I really don't see any other decent offers readily available. ( patience is a virtue, I am seriously lacking in) Being a tech my whole life, I can't stand broken stuff. My aim has always been to attack every problem, straight on, with the best parts that were readily available at the time. Sometimes with excellent results...sometime, not so great. I see this quest the same way.....Wish me Luck.......Russ

PS; once I get the right combo....I will have things for sale....lol
 
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