anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[ear4audio]

Another find. 1000ZE box.
Notice that the 1000ZE has 2 additional patents compared to the 999VE. (The 1000ZE/X lists 6 patent numbers).

 

[Stevedel]

Imagine my surprise when I opened the box.

View attachment 1328502
Exceptional. Sounds so good.

I've said this before, care to hear it again? "Listening to a 999VE is like being in the 3rd light slot above a full symphony orchestra."

 

[sanlanman]

This is a heads up caution on a 600LAC stylus. For my recently acquired 600LAC cart body, I ordered a genuine S600LAC from Pickupnalden in the Netherlands. I first emailed them about it and asked if it was genuine Empire, not aftermarket, and the reply I got was that is genuine. I ordered it and got a replica black Empire stylus with the word Empire on the flip down stylus guard without any coloring on the letters. It was packaged as a TONAR 1345 with "original stylus" stickers on the box. The original black stylus I got with the cart body, (minus cantilever) has the Empire name overlaid with silver paint. The replica has a straight silver cantilever, and with my 40X loupe the stylus tip appears to be elliptical, but it could be something more like hyperelliptical, etc. I just don't have a microscope good enough to tell minute detail. It has a black dot on the cantilever, indicating JICO likely sourcing. I played it briefly in my already mounted 500ID body and it was not as balanced, extended, and detailed as the new old stock S55E stylus that was in the 500ID body, all tracking at 1.25 grams. For the large price it should have been a genuine new old stock. Pickupnalden has agreed to take it back for a refund.

 

[boreas]

Russell Industries (think EVG styli) now owns the Empire brand and are selling some styli that are Japan-sourced and probably JICO. They're distinguishable by not having the Empire lettering picked out in a color. The S2000X that LP Gear sells (for entirely too much money) is a notable example. Your 600LAC may be another.

Since the Empire brand is now owned by Russell, it's at once both accurate and misleading to refer to their "Empire" styli as genuine Empire. That may be what Fred Caras at PUN, perhaps innocently, is claiming and judging by the packaging, both may well be true. It would be worth asking him, if for no other reason than that he may be buying them under the mistaken impression that they're genuine original Empire styli. Fred's a good guy.

 

[wualta]

Moral: For Empire, because of the sale of their name that boreas mentions, genuine doesn't necessarily mean original, by which I mean made the way Empire originally sold it under their or Benz's ownership.
Fortunately for us, the color dot on the cantilever is the obvious (and, so far, consistent) tattletale, so we should ask if it's present if website photos don't show it. Glad to hear PUN stepped up.

 

[boreas]

While assuming that the PUN 600LAC is in fact a "Russell Empire", it isn't fair to assume that all the Empire styli in PUN's inventory are too. I've purchased at least one Empire stylus from Fred, an S888SE-ERD and it was the genuine article.

But, in light of sanlanman's experience, it wouldn't hurt to ask in advance.

 

[russdall]

Spot/Dot On, John and Walt. The search for "genuine" Empire styli is rapidly becoming a matter of Forensic science, it would seem.

 

[wualta]

...The search for "genuine" Empire styli is rapidly becoming a matter of Forensic science...

As the number of original-genuines available to the marketplace continues, as it must, to dwindle, the percentage of nonoriginal-genuines increases, so while the problem has been with us for years, it's not getting better except in one respect: some vendors are getting hip.
If the nonoriginals sounded good, there'd be no problem, but too often they don't. But the way around the problem is to ask before you buy. Ask about the presence of a dot or get a photo if there isn't one.

If there is a photo but you're not sure, bring it here and we'll take a look.

 

[sanlanman]

Well, now that the "modern" S600LAC stylus is on its way back, I am now back to the conundrum of what to mount to the 600LAC body. The mug of needles guy quoted me a price to rebuild the existing stylus grip with a Microline, that price being nearly up to Soundsmith rebuild cost territory. Or try one of the upgraded stylus point models from LP Gear or TTN. Or keep looking around and maybe an other S55E will come along, but then I will have the equivalent of another 500ID. But, I am curious to hear what if any improvement I get with a hyper elliptical or fine line stylus of some type.

 

[sanlanman]

And now for something completely different:

My new inductance meter has come in and I ran checks on my Empire bodies. Here's the readings list
Chunkies (1st number left chan, 2nd number right chan.)

60ES (#1) L649/R663 Mz
60ES (#2) 639/649
60ES (#3) 614/622
LTD200 562/556
TC40 623/611
400TC 583/597
ID50 322/319
500ID 326/342
600LAC 335/337

Blobs
2000E/III L545/R540 (Small Model Number Font on Body)
2000E/III 255/252 (Large Model Number Font on Body)
Rex 440D (#1) 203/207
Rex 440D (#2) 198/NR NR= No Reading, possibly defective channel
Rex 440D (#3) NR/199 NR= No Reading, possibly defective channel
REX 66PE-X (#1) 286/279
REX 66PE-X (#2) 283/284
REX 66QE-X (#1) 272/270
REX 66QE-X (#2) 255/257

 

[wualta]

While I consider a line-contact stylus an absolutely necessary tool to have on hand for playing certain kinds of records, there are ways to get one that are less expensive than paying near-Soundsmith prices. If you have to have one for the 600 LAC, though, you'll have to hunt down an S600LAC or S77LAC, or else brave the aftermarket. As far as I know, anyway. Maybe someone else has a better idea.

Interesting readings! Thanks for posting that. Looks like you have one mislabeled 2000E, but all the rest are within range of what I've come to think of as "nominal" readings, despite Empire never publicly naming any. Your 66QE/Xes show the change from early to later production and your #1 440D is also early production.

Try resistance readings on the dead channels of the 440Ds and see if you can't get a flicker of a reading.

 

[russdall]

Forgive me, if I drone on about how glorious the 999VE/X sounds, on about every cut of vinyl that I own, but it does.

But the subject at hand is my 2000E III. I back shelved this cart because of it sounding too bright/loud, just entirely too damn happy.
Do any of you "learnededid' folks have any constructive ideas about how to settle this cart down, to a more "kinder/gentler" beast?
It has the original stylus, that appears to be in excellent shape........maybe a stylus change is in order.
Thoughts?

Walt,John.......Anyone ??

 

[boreas]

Remind us as to what stylus you're using. Aftermarket styli for Empires tend to be bright but any of the original 237 styli, other than the 237-DEZ (S2000Z) should sound fine. The only other way to tame the brightness is trough increasing the loading (but your system might not be set up for that).

 

[russdall]

Remind us as to what stylus you're using. Aftermarket styli for Empires tend to be bright but any of the original 237 styli, other than the 237-DEZ (S2000Z) should sound fine. The only other way to tame the brightness is trough increasing the loading (but your system might not be set up for that).

I believe it to be the original;

 

[wualta]

Your 2000E/III actually measures above spec inductancewise, so that's not the problem. If the stylus is genuine and everything obvious has been checked, the only reason I can think of for what you describe is a hardened suspension. Stiff rubber makes bass recede (which by itself can sound like excess treble) and also, if the deterioration is advanced, makes the treble "shouty" and even hoarse sounding.

It would be relatively simple to add parallel resistors to the cabling or the phono stage to get down to 22k or 32k ohms loading, but that shouldn't be necessary.

 

[russdall]

Maybe I'll try a little Rawn Re-Grip, to see if it helps. In the event that I kill it, what styli suggestions might be considered as a viable replacement?
Do you think a 4239-DET would be a suitable fit? I have 3 of those.
John, Sadly I do not have a 237-DEZ.

 

[boreas]

The 4239-DET might sound fine. Being for the lower inductance 66 body, pitting it in a higher inductance 2000 body might tame the brightness. Since you have several, it might be good to try it while Rawning is in progress. I put a (white) 4239-PDE in my 600+ mH EXL-20 Imp and it sounds fine, not dull as you'd expect, so it can work.

 

[russdall]

I put a (white) 4239-PDE in my 600+ mH EXL-20 Imp and it sounds fine, not dull as you'd expect, so it can work.

Thanks John, I do have a couple of the white 4239-PDE's, that I enjoy on my 66's, I'll give that a turn and report back.

 

[wualta]

Putting a different stylus in that 2000E/III will also serve as a test to narrow the problem down. And it never hurts to swap styli around to hear what changes.

 

[russdall]

Ok, so I tried the white 4239-PDE on the 2000E III. I found it a little too subdued for my taste. I don't want to loose it's "perkiness" so to speak.
In my collection, I found a smokey ( almost black ) stylus, with an embossed Empire, flip down guard, that sounds pretty decent. The lettering isn't colored and I didn't have it labeled, so I'm at a loss as to what is, but it will get me through until the Rawn process is finished. Whatever it is, it doesn't have a tapered cantilever.......But on the up side, it has no pesky dots.