anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

Isn't it rather odd, then, that, none of the other carts where I've seen specs listed in the VE library, Empire or otherwise, describe the magnets this way? I'm not suggesting that you're mistaken; I'm merely puzzled as to why those magnets are mentioned in the 600, 500, 400 and 300 in this series but seemingly nowhere else.
 
Soundminded said:
I have ... a 999VE... I've found that these cartridges only perform well with genuine Empire styli. I finally acquired NOS for the 999VE. I'm wondering if I can upgrade the 999T/EX to a 999V/EX by just replacing the stylus.
According to the published specs, ZE/X and VE/X are 550mH; the TE/X is actually lower, 350mH, so they're not an exact match, but the error is in the preferred direction of "warmer", more "mellow", and it's not going to be a large error, so you should be able to EQ it by ear if you even hear a difference. Compliance figures are close, ETM (effective tip mass) is the same. Try it.

I keep my eye on the ETM figures over compliance figures, because I like to imagine a pingpong ball rocketing down a complex groove rather than a golf ball. With that in mind, and with NOS styli for the ZE/X relatively cheap (less than $50 shipped), why not do your swap and put a ZE/X stylus in the VE/X body? Down from 0.7mg to 0.5mg.

And yes, I agree that just as with the PickerStan twins, the better Empire styli sound/track better than any of the aftermarket jobs I've tried, including expensive ones. The problem is there are what you might call posthumous Empire styli out there, from when Empire had become not much more than another Pfanstiehl, that look original but are nothing but aftermarket jobs in "original" clothing. Caveat emptor.

beej said:
... the UFR is a rather unique animal. ... From what I've been able to learn (and I'm not certain about this) there were several styli in that series that have the external magnet design that the 800UFR has. ... I've run the 500ID in both the UFR and the OP4. Sound is amazingly good in both but clearly superior in the 800UFR.
I'm envious of your 500 ID stylus-- been trying for many months. But it's "voiced" for a 350mH body, and would sound dull in a 700mH body like the OP 4. Apparently the "helper" magnets [again, we found that they aren't magnets] aren't absolutely necessary for styli to sound good in the 800 UFR body, which is good to know.

All those magnets you mentioned are from the Empire sales literature, and they're inside the body. If the 800 UFR's specs are the same (do you have the owner's leaflet you could scan for us?), that's another clue that all the Chunky bodies share the same basic design. As for inconsistencies in VE's specs chart, well, that's why I never trust what I find there without some corroboration.

beej said:
Can anyone:
1) confirm that the magnet designs on those lesser styli are similar to the 800UFR; and
2) shed any light on what those magnets are supposed to do?
1 ) I think you yourself provided the best evidence that the UFR body is at least very similar to the "lesser" bodies and that the difference is [mostly if not entirely] in the stylus.

2 ) Empire has published many exploded diagrams of their rather complex cartridge design over the years. Lots of coils, lots of magnets. It's a variable-reluctance design, so all three magnets are inside the body (the main magnet is all the way in the back, behind the coils) and often made of different magnetic materials-- the final layout is described in the patent-- the result being, as you said, very hum resistant and with good separation. And heavy, until the EDR.9 and later.

NB: Some of the later Azden-made Empire-branded carts (eg, LTD 150, 350DE, etc) are clones of the Azden YM-10E and use the moving-magnet principle. So did the early-1960s Empires like the 880P and 108 and 88.

Wualta, I wonder if the snuggers could be the "lightning rods" mentioned in this ad.
The way I read it, the antistatic path is supposed to be the gold "plating" on the stylus and cantilever-- a literal "lightning rod". Looks like gold paint to me. But that means the cantilever material isn't conductive, which tells me it's anodized, as I've long suspected. The "snuggers" might have helped with this, but they're plastic..
 
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The specific mention of the magnets is probably more about the type than their existance. Samariam Cobalt magnets are very powerful for their size. In a practical manner, what this means is less mass in the body if its a moving iron design, or less mass on the cantilever if its moving magnet.
 
One thing ya gotta love about Empire is their stylus carrier colors. Tangerine for the OP5 for Pete's sake. :D

Empire also HAD to have had the most complex design and numbering system of any manufacturer of the day. Soo many different models and variations within a basic model.

Anyway, this is a fascinating thread, especially for an Empire fan from way back (1976) when I got a 2000 E/III with my BIC 980 for free.

Over the years, I have acquired a few other models including a 4000 D/I for CD-4 quad.

I also have an S800UFR stylus I got from a Garage-A-Records auction for 25 bucks. The package price is $92.95 from back in the day! Holy smokes! One of the little magnets has fallen off and some day I will get it under a microscope to see if I can find any markings to identify the orientation of it and glue it back on.

Doug
 
Doug G. said:
One thing ya gotta love about Empire is their stylus carrier colors. Tangerine for the OP5 for Pete's sake. :D
They're Gummi-stylus delicious. And very chewy if you try to clean them in a d-limonene bath, as I did.

Doug G. said:
I also have an S800UFR stylus... One of the little magnets has fallen off and some day I will get it under a microscope to see if I can find any markings to identify the orientation of it and glue it back on.
Egad!
[UPDATE: the putative magnets on the UFR stylus are not magnets at all]
 
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Good stuff, guys; thanks. I acquired my 800UFR when it came on a parts unit turntable a while back and regrettably have no literature on it other than what I've found on the internet.

I took a closer look at the broken stylus body that came with the UFR and the magnets are clearly visible on the shank of the stylus body where it fits into the cart. There are no magnets visible on the 500ID stylus body. Question answered.
 
Thanks Butch. Yeah, as far as I know, the S800UFR is the only stylus which has the four little magnets glued onto the plastic surrounding the rear end of the cantilever, one on each of the four sides.

Typically, when Empire talks about all the magnets it used, it is talking about the internal magnets used for hum bucking as Walt said. There are diagrams of the internals in several advertising documents. At least of the 2000 type series before the Benz days. It is said Dr. Benz was impressed with Empire engineering and designs and that's why he bought the company.

I wish I knew exactly what Empire was doing with the 800UFR with the extra magnets if, in fact, they ARE magnets and not just plain metal. What was the goal and what does "UFR" stand for? Ultimate Frequency Response? Unusual Frequency Response? Ugly Frequency Response (OK prolly not)? Uncle Frank's Recorplayingdevice?

:D

Doug
 
LOL, Doug. Yeah that UFR designation is a bit of a mystery, isn't it?

Wualta, in re-reading your 2nd to last post you indicated that the 500ID would sound 'dull' in the OP4 body because of the 350mH vs 700mH differential. To be honest, I didn't hear it as at all dull in the OP4 body. It did seem to me that it sounded better in the 800UFR body but, again being honest, that may be the expectation factor. I will say that the stylus body is a more secure fit in the OP4.

Very interesting and helpful thread, guys.

Oh, and Doug, a beverage of your choosing on me if you can find out what the UFR stands for.
 
UFR is Ultra Flat [Frequency] Response.
EMPIRE 800 UFR from brochure.jpg

Give that Doug guy a Moretti La Rossa.

beej: a frequency-response error in the treble can be heard all sorts of ways, so I'll take "sounded better in the UFR". As long as you don't say it sounded better in your M91E, that's good enough.
 
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I'm not the most savvy audiophile but I do think I've evolved beyond attempting to insert an Empire stylus in a Shure cart.

Seriously, thanks for that and I'm happy to spring for a beverage for both you and Doug. Paypal?
 
Jeepers. Mr. Otto's pages are a remarkable godsend! I have had them bookmarked for a long time but I just haven't looked at all of them.

It's funny that after you find out what an abbreviation stands for it seems so obvious.

The damper theory sounds completely plausable. And Walt deserves the beverage since he discovered the meaning of UFR! :D

Doug
 
I just picked up a SE9900 body from AKer drabina and got a 239-DEX (S917E) stylus in for it. Do you guys know what the DEX stands for? I know it's a 2x7 elliptical, .75 to 1.5 grams. Just curious.
 
Darn Extra Xcellent!

:D

But seriously, D = Diamond, E = Elliptical, I don't know exactly what the X means but they are among the best Empire styli. Hence the relatively high price.

Doug
 
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beej said:
I'm not the most savvy audiophile but I do think I've evolved beyond attempting to insert an Empire stylus in a Shure cart.
Hee hee. YOU wouldn't, but here on AK... And part of it is an inside joke: I'm experimenting with an Excel Shibata stylus in the M91E body.

beej said:
Seriously, thanks for that and I'm happy to spring for a beverage for both you and Doug. Paypal?
Good heavens, after the Pioneer PL fix-it manual, I still owe you. And since I kept relevant web pages close at hand at all times, it was entirely too easy. But if you want to enjoy a nice doppelbock, grab a Moretti La Rossa and think nice thoughts about me. Send Doug a World Market gift certificate; he's put up with my fumbling ADC investigations for longer than anyone should.

Question: does the 800 UFR actually sound any different from its run-of-the-mill peers?
 
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Question: does the 800 UFR actually sound any different from its run-of-the-mill peers?

Yanno, I'd really like to get my hands on (egad, it'll be spendy) that S800UFR from turntableneedles, mount and break it in before I even attempt to answer that. (I can see where the proceeds from the sale of a few flipped PL-X series will next be going.)

When I do that, I'll try to post something reasonably coherent about the results.
 
Yes, I too was taking another look at the UFR stylus and wondering how to justify spending that much for a plain old 0.6mg [ah, but it isn't 0.6mg; it's 0.18mg!] 2x7 elliptical... unless it was insanely great.

UPDATE: The 580LT p-mount uses the 800 UFR stylus. A NOS example just went on eBay for $62.
.
 
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Hey all, I have a number of Empire cartridges, and while researching them for new stylus has generally been complicated, I have one that has me completely stumped, it is marked as an "Empire Lab ii"...it has no stylus and I would like to find a replacement. I can find nothing on this cartridge....thanks.
 
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