anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

I suspect it's a 66-series clone. The only way to narrow it down further would be to measure the coils' resistance and/or inductance. Got a digital ohmmeter?
 
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Guess what? A few years after college I bought my first system, TT came with an Empire 2000E; still have it, hasn't been played since late 76'.
 
UPDATE: The 580LT p-mount uses the 800 UFR stylus. A NOS example just went on eBay for $62.
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Couldn't find that anywhere on ebay either in current or completed listings. You don't have a link do you?

Update: Just found it. Sold already for $74.95 - a steal.
 
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Auction # 220915489630. Turns out it didn't "just" go. I was thrown off by the fact that the photos are still there after more than a year (very unusual ime) and didn't squint hard enough at the tiny "2011". Good photos, too. I've added them to my half-vast collection of Empire mug shots. Incidentally, for anyone reading this, when you ask about your old Empire cart, please include a photo. It could make the difference between an aha and a shrug!
 
OK, today I'm trying my OP4 with either the S400TC stylus or the S500ID stylus and, even though I thought past experimentation revealed a duller sound with the S500ID, I was wrong. It has just slightly lower output with the S500ID.

And, thinking about it further, isn't that the only difference a stylus could make? I mean, there are no coils or anything in it to react differently with the cartridge internals. Just different metal or different amounts of metal (no magnets in Empire styli) to influence the magnetic lines of force within the cartridge.

It seems it would be a fairly linear influence. The only stylus which may be expected to affect the response would be the S800UFR with its additional little pieces of metal on there to damp magnetic eddy currents and thus, theoretically flatten the response which was probably the goal of that model.

What do you guys think?

Doug
 
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Guess what? A few years after college I bought my first system, TT came with an Empire 2000E; still have it, hasn't been played since late 76'.
Nothing wrong with the 2000Es (plain, I,II, III), and they're [were!] common as dirt on eBay, but you also don't want to avoid the 2000 conical and the plain 2000E, despite their higher ETM. Those two are 1.0 mg, about what you'd get with a mid-1960s Shure M55E. The others all seem to differ only by compliance. They're all 0.6 mg. Even the 2000X is 0.6. The only way I currently know of to go lower with ETM is either backward to the 1000ZE/X (0.5 mg) or a little forward to the weirdo 2000Z or 2000T twins (0.2 mg, near state of the art for their day), or stick with the 4000 series quad styli (0.4 mg) or go on a quest for the mythically-rare EDR.9 (0.3 mg). There are other lightweights out there (800 UFR and clones, 1000GT and clones).

Why is ETM important? Imagine pingpong balls vs. golf balls ricocheting down those fast-moving stereo groove walls. Still, despite a high-looking ETM spec, a cartridge can still sound good and if it's a conical, can be run safely at a higher VTF. Good tracking requires more than simply a low ETM spec.
 
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OK, today I'm trying my OP4 with either the S400TC stylus or the S500ID stylus and, even though I thought past experimentation revealed a duller sound with the S500ID, I was wrong. It has just slightly lower output with the S500ID.

And, thinking about it further, isn't that the only difference a stylus could make? I mean, there are no coils or anything in it to react differently with the cartridge internals. Just different metal or different amounts of metal (no magnets in Empire styli) to influence the magnetic lines of force within the cartridge.

It seems it would be a fairly linear influence. The only stylus which may be expected to affect the response would be the S800UFR with its additional little pieces of metal on there to damp magnetic eddy currents and thus, theoretically flatten the response which was probably the goal of that model.

What do you guys think?

Doug

Doug, as I indicated in an earlier post I didn't think the S500ID sounded at all dull in the OP4. It did sound better in the 800UFR but also as I said earlier that may have been expectation.
 
Today I also managed to get the little piece of metal glued back onto my S800UFR stylus assembly so I guess my dexterity hasn't deteriorated too badly in my old age.

I noticed that the cantilever of the S800UFR stylus is much finer than the S400TC or S500ID styli. Smaller in diameter and shorter. Similar to the difference in the 2000 styli between the regular Es and the Z (Walt called my 2000Z weird :tears: :D).

So, obviously, Empire was going for a reduced ETM with that stylus. As soon as I deem that the rubberized super glue I used to glue the little metal piece has cured, I will try that stylus in my OP4 (I know I have before but I don't remember what it sounded like).

Doug
 
I also never really answered Walt's question about what these little pieces of metal look like or how many there are.

There are four of them, one glued to each of the sides of the plastic housing surrounding the rear of the cantilever. They are little rectangles about 1 X 2mm and there are recesses molded into the plastic to accomodate them so they don't stick out which would make insertion of the stylus into the cartridge impossible.

One other thing. The rear of cantilever in the other styli pretty much extend all the way back to the end of the plastic housing (OK, not quite) but not so with the S800UFR. The rear of the cantilever is quite a bit more down in there toward the front with these. I would say a good additional mm.

Doug
 
oddly enough , my buddy just texted me this photo, thought I would share

empire_zps076d58e4.jpg
 
Yup. Probably one of THE most famous and original ads in the HiFi magazines back in the seventies.

Doug
 
OK, I am in a posting frenzy today in this thread. I do have to make up for not posting in a long time, however.

Anyway, I now have the S800UFR stylus in my OP4 and it sounds incredible tracking at 1 gram! Now playing Cat Stevens Greatest hits and you guys know that thing where it almost brings tears to your eyes because it sounds so good. This has that.

Another thing, Walt and everybody. If you go to the Turntableneedles site and look at the picture of the S800UFR stylus at the top of that page, you can see one of the little metal bits on the plastic extension that goes into the cartridge.

EDIT: Oh yeah and if you mouse over the "zoom" icon there you can see all of them as the picture rotates!

Doug
 
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Yep, I discovered that a couple of days ago and sucked the .gif into the Empire phototorium. It's not the sharpest macro shot, but at least you can see what Steve at turntableneedles.com calls the magnets
[UPDATE: They're not magnets.]
Hats off to Steve at TTN.com for this gif and other unique identification tools.
Empire 800 UFR- see also 580LT.gif
EMPIRE 800 UFR STYLUS GIF FROM TURNTABLENEEDLES.COM

To answer your question about inductance and voicing, we know some styli must be voiced differently from others because of the wide range of inductances used. The 2000Z/T twins are spec'd at ~650mH but measure over 800mH in my three samples, one of which is an EXL 30. If you need that much inductance (which means that strong of a low-pass filter) to reach flat response, you know that stylus has a rising response somewhere in the audio range.... compared, that is, to a 4000-series stylus that only needs 250mH to arrive at flat.

The body inductance is always as high or low as it is for a reason, and the reason is to bring the response of the cartridge as close to flat as possible. Other good examples of this are the story of how the XSV-3000 became the 881S, or how the ADC Super XLM Mk II stylus can be "tamed" by putting it in a Mk III body.

I've too often told the story of my expensive S77LAC (equivalent to a 600LAC) arriving and sounding like the high treble'd been lopped off when I put it in my 300 Z body but sounding Aaaaahhhhhh when snapped into my RM 50 body. In my system, the difference was clear and obvious. In someone else's system..? Too many variables. Maybe, but maybe not.

I wish we had specs on the UFR body [see post #1303]. It may be a second-generation design, which means 700mH which means sounding good in an OP 4 body. It's encouraging that the canti on the UFR looks like the one on the 2000Z-- maybe it's the exception to the 0.6mg rule the other Chunky styli follow. [It is!]

The 2000Z is weird not only for its high inductance but also for its laminated magnet structure (16 layers!) and of course the teensy shank that admits no lesser styli, a la V15 Type III--V. Maybe the 800 UFR is the Chunky 2000Z [It IS! see post #1303], in which case I'd expect it, like the 1080 LT, to have a 700mH body [It does!], which as I said would let its stylus sound great in an OP 4 body (also 700mH). I believe the UFR's magic is entirely in its stylus.

And by the way, the 1080 LT sounds great too. I'd like to be able to compare its stylus to the 800 UFR's.
 
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Oopsy. For gosh sakes, I forgot all about mechanical resonances and their interaction with electricalities and such. What an oaf! That, of course, WOULD make plenty of differences with different styli in different cartridges.

Thanks Walt.

And I have a feeling you are right about the 800UFR being a later 2000Z. They even both have gold stylus assemblies. And the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny cantilever/stylus, of course.

Doug
 
Aha, didn't know about the gold-coated cantilever on the UFR! [Oops. See below] That and the reduced effective mass makes it what I'm calling a Gen-2, up there with the later Golden Touch series.

Doug's mention of a level change from the 400 TC to the 500 ID stylus made me think: If you want to decrease the effective (aka moving) mass of the cantilever of a moving-iron stylus (whether induced-magnet or variable reluctance) to gain tracking ability at a low VTF, the only ways I can think of would be to reduce the mass of the cantilever, certainly, but also of the soft-iron/permalloy collar on the back end of the cantilever. That would reduce the output, so how do you increase the output level of a moving-iron stylus? In a moving magnet design, this is easy: just use a stronger magnet. But in a moving iron design, the magnets can't change, since they're part of the body.

So I wonder if the reduced mass of the collar on the UFR's canti made it necessary to crank up and/or focus the surrounding/inducing magnetic field. While I like my damping idea, the real function of those extra magnets [EDIT: again, we discovered later that they are not magnets] or soft-iron bits may be even more basic and obvious-- to focus the existing magnetic field more strongly around the end of the cantilever . Thanks to you guys for supplying the thinner-smaller-canti clue.

Doug: the important thing, even if we can show on a B&K graphing meter that the frequency response changes up and down in the treble with mismatches of body and stylus, is Is it audible?, and if it is, is it in a pleasant or unpleasant direction? The saga of the Super XLM is a case in point. When it comes to our individual home systems, there are literally too many variables and no guarantees, and this has absolutely no correlation with the hairiness or manliness or worthiness of our individual setups.
 
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I used to have an Empire 700T, which I have never heard mentioned anywhere since, but I do know it was a good cartridge.

Presently I have an 888 with the original stylus/cantilever assembly, and it's soon to be shipped to Australia.

I'd love to find an Empire T4P...
 
Walt, I didn't mean the cantilever on the UFR is gold, just the plastic carrier and stylus guard. Just like on the 2000Z.

And, comparing the back ends of the S400TC and S500ID styli, the 400TC has quite a bit more metal present than the 500ID. The level difference between the two styli is very subtle.

Doug
 
SPak: You had one of the many clones of the 2000X. It was indeed a good'un.

Doug: Even without the "lightning rod" gold coating, if it's an obviously-lightened canti, it's still Gen-2. Like I said, even the TOTL Gen-1 Chunky styli are a little porky by 1980s standards. The real "proof" would be measuring the 800 UFR body and finding it north of 700mH [SPOILER: It is].

Do you have a way of getting a nice closeup of the tail ends of those two styli?
 
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I will second the hats off to Steve and Turntableneedles. Truly one of the most invaluable resources in all vinyldom.

I don't have a way of showing the tails of those styli as I am way behind the times in imaging capabilities.

The 500ID just looks like the outer diameter of the cantilever with a solid piece recessed into it. The 400TC looks like there is an extra collar of metal around the cantilever diameter.

Now, if we could get Butch to measure the DCR (if he doesn't have an inductance meter) of his UFR body, we could derive the inductance from that. :D

Doug
 
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