AT440MLa/b (or its Replacement) Conundrum...

A

AnzacSonata

Super Member
I'm getting ready to replace an AT95e which came with my (infamous) AT-LP120 installed in the headshell with a micro-line variant from Audio-Technica, either a closeout on a 440MLa/b or the model that replaced that cart, in order to primarily combat horrific inner groove distortion/tracing error problems (please -- no "keep that AT95e and re-re-re-re-confirm its alignment and settings!" comments; I've been down this road before ad nauseum; it's time for an upgrade, plain and simple), but I'm concerned with things I'm reading online about this turntable's "poorly made" arm...

Is it true that if I upgrade to the 440 or the current replacement model I won't be able to experience the improvement in sound quality due to the LP120's s-shaped arm and its "limitations," as so many YouTubers and others online say? I haven't surgically removed the internal preamp, as is popular to do with this deck, but I am switched out to use an internal phono pre in my stereo receiver (even though the majority of 120 owners say this doesn't "pass over" the negatives of the internal preamp anyway)...so would I experience any sonic benefits by switching out the AT95e for the 440 or its replacement? I suppose, in essence, what I'm asking is, can IGD ever be eliminated with this turntable using the stock arm, or will every record be mistracked no matter what because of the design?

Of course, I understand that the new micro-line cart would have to be meticulously aligned, adjusted, etc...

I have other questions about upgrades -- including the so-called "no snake oil here aftermarket counterweight" that's sold for the 120 and switching the felt platter mat to a thick rubber variant -- but I wanted to pose this one first.

Thanks in advance, A/K'ers!
 
AnzacSonata said:
I suppose, in essence, what I'm asking is, can IGD ever be eliminated with this turntable using the stock arm,

Thanks in advance, A/K'ers!
Click to expand...

IGD can certainly be minimized using proper alignment protractor such as Baerwald. :thumbsup:

The Audio Technica AT - LP120 is not an exact duplicate of the Technics SL-1200xx, using the Technics SL-1200xxx alignment gauge may lead to problems.

A very good procedure is to use Baerwald protractor alignment and a needle at least as fine as the AT "linear contact" or Shure "hyper elliptical".
 
The LP120 is known to have anti-skate issues, such as it doesn't work very well. I know because I used to own one. IGD is just a fancy term for tracking problems near the end of the record. A fineline stylus certainly can help in this regard.

I currently use an AT440MLa body with an AT150Sa shibata stylus. Its tracking ability is awesome, as is the detail retrieval. This cartridge and stylus are mounted to a 2007 model Technics SL1200MKII, tracking at 1.6 grams.

I do have a fix for the LP120's skating issue......

Wayner
 
Balifly said:
IGD can certainly be minimized using proper alignment protractor such as Baerwald. :thumbsup:

The Audio Technica AT - LP120 is not an exact duplicate of the Technics SL-1200xx, using the Technics SL-1200xxx alignment gauge may lead to problems.
Click to expand...

(please -- no "keep that AT95e and re-re-re-re-confirm its alignment and settings!" comments; I've been down this road before ad nauseum; it's time for an upgrade, plain and simple)

:thumbsup:

(Unless you were referring to alignment schemes once I GET the new cart...and I did acknowledge in the original post that I know alignment would need to be correct on the 440 or other model I may end up with.)
 
Last edited:
needlestein said:
FWIW: I find the advice that an arm is not good enough for a higher end cartridge is usually a bunch of hooey.

I run all kinds of cartridges that are too good for my Technics SL-1200 and I can hear the differences, so the high end isn't totally lost on my arm. Perhaps my cartridges would sound better on "better" arms, but a lot of that stuff is subjective. What's more important is that you have a decent design and a well-built example with good tight bearings, smooth travel proper geometry.

The rest is mass matching, which is important, but I would suspect that an AT440-MLa/b would not be too much cartridge for that arm.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this; more so than wondering if the 440 was "too much cartridge" for my deck's arm, it was a matter of wondering if IGD and tracing distortion could never be minimized BECAUSE of the 120's arm design, which I read all over the 'Net...
 
WaynerN said:
The LP120 is known to have anti-skate issues, such as it doesn't work very well. I know because I used to own one. IGD is just a fancy term for tracking problems near the end of the record. A fineline stylus certainly can help in this regard.

I currently use an AT440MLa body with an AT150Sa shibata stylus. Its tracking ability is awesome, as is the detail retrieval. This cartridge and stylus are mounted to a 2007 model Technics SL1200MKII, tracking at 1.6 grams.

I do have a fix for the LP120's skating issue......

Wayner
Click to expand...

Yes, I've heard about the 120's anti-skate issues, and know you had one from reading old threads in here; I was told, though -- by folks in this forum -- that anti-skate doesn't have anything to do with IGD. As for anti-skating problems that are obvious, my stylus doesn't jump once settled down on the lead-in grooves, the arm doesn't tend to jump towards the label and I experience a smooth motion as the arm travels over the run-out grooves...all of which had led me to believe that something is at least "okay" in the AS department (with my AS set to the same or a little over the value of the tracking force, which is 2.35 on my AT95E currently). I also don't seem to be experiencing distortion on any one side, which also led me to believe the AS wasn't horribly off...

That said, let's get back to what the main gist of this topic was supposed to be -- I was concerned after reading comments from people who claimed the LP120's arm could NEVER minimize IGD or tracking problems because of its design, regardless of how high-end a cart was installed...

Is this true?
 
Well, I would say that those people that don't think the IGD and anti-skate are not related, is not true. I set all of my tables with a blank disc. The disc allows you to observe the arm's behavior and with many tables, the arm behavior changes depending on the record position. That is how I discovered the LP120 issue and created the dead-man anti-skate.

The guy I sold it to loves it. IGD is caused by mis-tracking. The stylus does not contact both grooves of the wall correctly. You also have to realize that music becomes very (physically) compressed as it gets closer to the label. Less space for just as much music. A fineline or microline type of stylus will help "fit" into the grooves better.
 
WaynerN said:
Well, I would say that those people that don't think the IGD and anti-skate are not related, is not true. I set all of my tables with a blank disc. The disc allows you to observe the arm's behavior and with many tables, the arm behavior changes depending on the record position. That is how I discovered the LP120 issue and created the dead-man anti-skate.

The guy I sold it to loves it. IGD is caused by mis-tracking. The stylus does not contact both grooves of the wall correctly. You also have to realize that music becomes very (physically) compressed as it gets closer to the label. Less space for just as much music. A fineline or microline type of stylus will help "fit" into the grooves better.
Click to expand...

If you do an in-forum search, you can find the thread I started on this subject -- I believe the title was something like "A/S: Less/More for IGD?"...most, if not all, members in that thread assured me anti-skate settings had nothing to do with inner groove problems.

If you do believe this to be connected, would you say more or less AS is needed at the inner grooves?

Be that as it may, I do understand why the micro-line styli fit the tightly-packed grooves better; that's not really the issue. My original question was whether or not this turntable's arm design can allow for ANY improvement in inner-groove tracking, regardless of which cartridge and stylus is attached to it, because I have read comments from people stating the LP120's arm will NEVER track without some kind of error.
 
AnzacSonata said:
(please -- no "keep that AT95e and re-re-re-re-confirm its alignment and settings!" comments; I've been down this road before ad nauseum; it's time for an upgrade, plain and simple)

:thumbsup:

(Unless you were referring to alignment schemes once I GET the new cart...and I did acknowledge in the original post that I know alignment would need to be correct on the 440 or other model I may end up with.)
Click to expand...

Using the Baerwald protractor alignment even without the finer stylus should still reduce the IGD. :music:
 
Balifly said:
Using the Baerwald protractor alignment even without the finer stylus should still reduce the IGD. :music:
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but for the record (pun intended?) I didn't want this to become a "no -- you're better off re-aligning that 95e and making SURE it's aligned 200-percent than buying a new cart!" thread; I do plan to make this an upgrade project.

Still, I can't get much feedback on what I originally inquired about -- that is, does the LP120's arm deserve the harsh criticism of it and is it true that no cart in the world is going to be free of IGD because of it?
 
Just get a AT-440MLB and get back to us. Even with the limitations of the LP120USB, it will be a large improvement over the 95e. The problem with the arm on the LP120 arm is the lack of anti-skate, arm height adjustment is not accurate (can't get low enough) and generally loose bearings. While all this will hurt the ultimate performance of the cartridge, the Microline stylus will still fit the groove much better than the previous cartridge. I have much knowledge with the LP120USB when I spent 1k on mods to try and see what it's capable of and the ceiling, cartridge wise, was an AT-150MLX.

SUPER MOD : Audio Technica AT-LP120USB by mastercontrolmedia, on Flickr
 
This seems like some past threads which are no longer found about the AT-LP120 and IGD to me, as the OP doesn't want to talk about alignment and keeps trying to funnel responses into a very specific question (coincidence, I am sure :cool:).

But, alignment is a key thing here - unless the tonearm geometry is messed up in which case you can align all day with no sustainable improvement. As others have mentioned, a finer profile (or a new) stylus will help, but I would troubleshoot in a logical manner before I run out and spend money chasing symptoms - first look for mechanical issues with the arm (bearings/anti skate/azimuth), then stylus (cleanliness/damage), then the cartridge (alignment).
 
You're not going to know if the better cart will solve the IGD you experience until you buy it and install it. Plain and simple.
 
AnzacSonata said:
Fair enough, but for the record (pun intended?) I didn't want this to become a "no -- you're better off re-aligning that 95e and making SURE it's aligned 200-percent than buying a new cart!" thread; I do plan to make this an upgrade project.

Still, I can't get much feedback on what I originally inquired about -- that is, does the LP120's arm deserve the harsh criticism of it and is it true that no cart in the world is going to be free of IGD because of it?
Click to expand...

No, the Audio Technica AT-LP120's arm does not deserve the harsh criticism. :)
 
vincei said:
Just get a AT-440MLB and get back to us. Even with the limitations of the LP120USB, it will be a large improvement over the 95e. The problem with the arm on the LP120 arm is the lack of anti-skate, arm height adjustment is not accurate (can't get low enough) and generally loose bearings. While all this will hurt the ultimate performance of the cartridge, the Microline stylus will still fit the groove much better than the previous cartridge. I have much knowledge with the LP120USB when I spent 1k on mods to try and see what it's capable of and the ceiling, cartridge wise, was an AT-150MLX.

SUPER MOD : Audio Technica AT-LP120USB by mastercontrolmedia, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Yes, I've actually seen your work on this turntable online before -- and thank you for getting to the essential heart of my question. I'll try the 440 or its modern day equivalent as soon as I can scrape up the funds.
 
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