Audio-Technica AT440ML/OCC

naconst

Active Member
Is it true the older Audio-Technica AT440ML/OCC ,is better or sound better than the newer 440ML/MLa ?I do see the specs do look better on the OCC:thmbsp:
 
I actually found the original OCC a tad brighter than the Mla, which itself is a lively ride.
Both are nicely detailed MM's and the tonal balance can be adressed with reduced resistive loading.
 
I had the older cart. The stylus collapsed on the 366th day.
I like the newer one better, warmer. Maybe the old one was always defective in some way.
I'm not so sure about the claims regarding higher quality copper.
There's little difference between C10100, C10200, and C11000, especially in the lengths used inside a cart. I suspect OCC was more of a marketing gimmick than science.
 
OCC is a higher quality of copper. It's cast rather than drawn and has far fewer crystal boundaries than OFHC. Because of the way it's manufactured, it's more costly as well.
 
I have a AT440ML/OCC on the turntable next to me, excellent sound for the money, a bit of sibilance when tracking is pushed to it's limit which was improved upon with the MLa.
 
OCC is a higher quality of copper. It's cast rather than drawn and has far fewer crystal boundaries than OFHC. Because of the way it's manufactured, it's more costly as well.

It's also sometimes referred to as "long-grain" copper (or silver), which typically means, for example, instead of hundreds of "grains" per meter of the wire, there's only one solid one.

Not surprised that some people are already doubting it in this thread, but I can tell you from (lots) of personal experience that OCC conductors tend to give great results, and I was impressed when I found out that AT uses it for the cartridge in question. It's expensive.
 
90% of a cartridges sound is in the cantilever and its tuning (damping, compliance, etc...)

The debate over OCC can simply be resolved by comparing the two styli on the same body (as the bodies/styli are interchangeable).
Even then... vibrational issues are far more likely to make a difference in a cartridge than wire differences... a marginal difference in the body construction would then affect the way that body damps vibration - one body may damp specific vibrations better than the other and vice versa...

This would in turn lead to one body sounding better on specific Arm/Table combinations than the other.

The issues related to cantilever behaviour and vibrational behaviour are "gross" sound issues- with impact measured in increments of multiple db...
Wire purity or grain structure issues are at most measured in tenths of a db.
There may be a difference there, but in now way would it be possible to identify it without first ensuring that all other parameters are identical, otherwise the other differences will completely overwhelm that one (if it in fact exists/is of audible magnitude).

A number of people have over the years mentioned a preference for the way the ATN440ML stylus was tuned over the way the later ATN440MLa is tuned...

You can run an ATN440MLa in an AT150 body (which does have the OCC)...
I have done that and guess what - it sound like an AT440MLa....
When I fit an ATN152LP to the same AT150 body.... it sounds like a AT152/AT155.

Look at the clearaudio MM cartridges - the body is basically a variation on the AT95 (!!).
But CA then go and fit it with their own generator supporting structure - either wood or aluminium, and they have their own custom cantilever/needle fitted and "hard mounted" (non removeable).
So what they have done is taken a very very basic cartridge (AT95), treated it extensively for vibration control, fitted a better cantilever and stylus, and hard mounted it to again minimise vibration influences.
Other people have taken their CA cartridge to places like soundsmith and had them re-cantilevered and re-tipped with further improvements to the sound...

To summarise - the thing that has the BIGGEST impact on the sound (in db impact) is the cantilever, second place goes to the needle (reducing/increasing distortion component in the sound), and then vibrational/mounting issues (which is where headshell tuning comes into it)....
Far far down from that we have wire quality.
(note: I am not talking about contact quality... I am assuming good contact throughout!)

bye for now

David
 
Considering how small and easily altered the signal is that passes through those wires, I would definitely not agree that the wire is far less important than the other aspects of cartridge design.
 
90% of a cartridges sound is in the cantilever and its tuning (damping, compliance, etc...)

The debate over OCC can simply be resolved by comparing the two styli on the same body (as the bodies/styli are interchangeable).
Even then... vibrational issues are far more likely to make a difference in a cartridge than wire differences... a marginal difference in the body construction would then affect the way that body damps vibration - one body may damp specific vibrations better than the other and vice versa...

This would in turn lead to one body sounding better on specific Arm/Table combinations than the other.

The issues related to cantilever behaviour and vibrational behaviour are "gross" sound issues- with impact measured in increments of multiple db...
Wire purity or grain structure issues are at most measured in tenths of a db.
There may be a difference there, but in now way would it be possible to identify it without first ensuring that all other parameters are identical, otherwise the other differences will completely overwhelm that one (if it in fact exists/is of audible magnitude).

A number of people have over the years mentioned a preference for the way the ATN440ML stylus was tuned over the way the later ATN440MLa is tuned...

You can run an ATN440MLa in an AT150 body (which does have the OCC)...
I have done that and guess what - it sound like an AT440MLa....
When I fit an ATN152LP to the same AT150 body.... it sounds like a AT152/AT155.

Look at the clearaudio MM cartridges - the body is basically a variation on the AT95 (!!).
But CA then go and fit it with their own generator supporting structure - either wood or aluminium, and they have their own custom cantilever/needle fitted and "hard mounted" (non removeable).
So what they have done is taken a very very basic cartridge (AT95), treated it extensively for vibration control, fitted a better cantilever and stylus, and hard mounted it to again minimise vibration influences.
Other people have taken their CA cartridge to places like soundsmith and had them re-cantilevered and re-tipped with further improvements to the sound...

To summarise - the thing that has the BIGGEST impact on the sound (in db impact) is the cantilever, second place goes to the needle (reducing/increasing distortion component in the sound), and then vibrational/mounting issues (which is where headshell tuning comes into it)....
Far far down from that we have wire quality.
(note: I am not talking about contact quality... I am assuming good contact throughout!)

bye for now

David

I agree. Wires can affect resistance, but in all cases no less quality wires than OFC are used. In practice it will mean that the difference between different individuals of the same cartridge is far, far greater than any change in Copper. IMO it´s not tenths of a dB, it´s much. much less.
gusten
 
The AT440ML/OCC and the AT440MLa both have PC-OCC instead of the LC-OFC of the classic AT120/102P family members (which AT still uses for the AT120E). And I'd second David's and gusten's opinion on its influence - actually, I think even minor needle manufacturing tolerances are already more important than LC-OFC vs. PC-OCC...

nacost: Don't worry about the different specs for the frequense response - that rather is a different style of presentation than an actual technical change (albeit a rather senseless one, imo - 'cause the newer "limited to human hearing range"-style of presentation doesn't help much, if one doesn't also specify the tolerance limits (e.g. +/- 2 dB)).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Also on the specs--- channel separation ( 30 db versus 27 dB) and channel balance ( 0,75 versus 0,8 dB).
Maybe not a big deal but the older 440 has better specs
 
naconst: I suggest not to worry much about that either - 'cause from a certain point on channel separation will also depend pretty much on the quality of each needle exemplar and channel balance will by and large depend on manufacturing tolerances of needle and body. I.e., those specs are still within the same ballpark and don't necessarily indicate a really relevant technical change. And then one often enough can't be quite sure what spec type one gets presented: typical? better than? typically better than? sensibly rounded or rather rounded to look good? et cetera. In other words: Unless very well defined, specs alyways are hard to compare - and as we already have one pretty safe indicator that AT indeed used a different kind of spec style for the MLa, the other differencences might rather be spec-cosmetical just as well...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Interestingly, the AT7V uses pcOCC in its coils. I'm impressed with the sound I get out of this model.
 
I'm glad somebody (Manfred) finally mentioned that the MLa has PC-OCC copper in it too. There is a sticker stating thus on the box.

Also, the frequency response spec. is different between the two models only because AT decided to spec. only to 20kHz. beginning with the MLa.

It is obvious the frequency response of the MLa goes much higher because there are several of us CD-4 enthusiasts who have used the MLa successfully and a Cartridge's response needs to go up to about 40kHz for that system.

Doug
 
I don't think there's any difference between the bodies of the ML and MLa. AFAIK both have 3.2K impedance and 490mH. The spec on the ML is 5 to 32KHz. The big difference is the output, 5mV vs 4mV for MLa.

All AT said was that some part (unspecified) was unavailable and they would keep it as close to original as possible. That part must have been the stronger magnets. BTW, the orig stylus is still available at LpGear for additional $. But I recommend a stylus with a boron or beryllium cantilever. With a 152ML stylus, my loading went from 32K to 47K and the sound was outstanding. If you change stylus remember, the cu becomes whatever the new stylus is.
neo
 
I have a question. I currently have the at 6440 ml occ. I'm looking to the replace the stylus. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
 
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