BA-5000 and B&W DM 604 S3

[fliphandywork]

I am thinking about getting BA-5000 to run my B&W DM603 S4. The amp is rated at 300wpc and the speakers are rated to handle 25-200w. Will this amp blow the speakers? Would the BA-5000 run them dramatically better than my rebuilt(echowars) 9090DB?

Thanks for the input.

 

[bolly]

As far as the BA-5000 sounding or driving your speakers better or worse than your 9090DB does I couldn't tell you. I can say that I would love to have an amp like that. And I've never even touched one before. Just a guess, if you didn't crank them knobs fully you'll be fine. There are a couple of members that actually have a BA-5000, Those lucky sons of... If you could score one of those, count yourself extremely fortunate.

 

[BeatleFred]

Thats probably a question that an actual BA-5000 Owner should answer

First of all, BA-5000's arent exactly out there for sale in abundance. So, unless you happen to know someone personally who wants to sell one, you can expect to probably wait a while until one comes along, and if its been kept in nice condition, you can also expect some competition on the bidding if it appears on Ebay. Then, you should be prepared to pay extra $$ for the packing and shipping of this enormously heavy amplifier which will certainly be a task for the seller to prepare and for you to eventually unpack. (unless you might be fortunate to live nearby to a seller thus bypassing packing/shipping/unpacking).

Will the BA-5000 sound dramatically than the 9090DB you ask? Well, I own both models and I am not inclined to sell either of them as they are both top notch Sansui products. The 9090DB is probably the most popular receiver Sansui ever built (though a case can be made for the G models as well in my opinion).

However, while the 9090DB is certainly powerful, you happen to be comparing it to the most powerful, heaviest, Monster of a Power Amplifier that Sansui ever built. So, its a bit unlikely that the 9090DB receiver would surpass what the mighty BA-5000 can do. You could enjoy both of them by using the 9090DB as a preamp to the BA-5000, but I feel a CA-3000 would be the best match, or a CA-2000. The type of products that a BA-5000 should really be compared to is other 300 Watt power amplifiers, and in the Sansui family that would be the B-2301 (which I own and is also fantastic) and the B-2302. (and ok, perhaps the G-33000). I dont know if you read the comment made by someone a few days ago whose uncle owns a BA-5000, and he seemed dissatisfied somewhat with the sound- well, all I can say is on my hi fi system, the BA-5000 has never sounded harsh to me nor has it been accused of that undesireable characteristic in the two magazine reviews I have).

The thing is, do you feel your speakers need something like a BA-5000? Are your speakers biamp-capable? If so, you could drive them with two 9090DB's if you so wish to. Another option is, if its a power amp you want and you're concerned with the B&W's power-handling capability, you might consider a BA-3000 (170W). It will certainly cost less than a BA-5000 and be a little easier to find. Or an AU-20000 integrated which is really a combo BA-3000/CA-3000.

Finally, I am wondering why you seem dissatisfied with the 9090DB, especially after EW has brought it up to spec for you, and in that case, I imagine its as good as new again.

B/F

 

[fliphandywork]

I am actually not dissatisfied with the 9090DB at all, I'm sure I'll love it. I loved it before it was rebuilt, so I am sure I will love it after. I am in no way looking to get rid of the receiver. I just want to get the most out of my speakers. My thinking was this: The 9090DB has "A", "B", and "C" outputs. I was going to put patio speakers on A, office speakers on B, and restroom speakers on C. Then I could use another amplifer on my living room mains.

I read a review somewhere about a guy that had his speakers wired as such: "A" channel going to the woofer, and "B" channel going to the tweeter. Is that really bi-amping? Would that give any advantage over bi-wiring?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ProAc_Fan]

Speakers tend to "blow up" due to underpowering ( clipping) not overpowering. I'd have no concerns with driving a pair of B&W's with 300 watts I'd just be a little more cautious with the volume knob.

Mike

 

[BeatleFred]

Oh, I thought that you already got the 9090DB back from EW. As for biamping, to do it, your speakers need a 2nd set of terminals in the back, one set is for the woofers, the other for the tweeter/midrange. If you had two 9090DB's for example, you can switch them into their power amp section and one 9090DB can drive the left speaker, and the other 9090DB can drive your right speaker (vertical biamping). A Sansui CA-3000 or a CA-2000 would be an ideal preamp to use in this arrangement since they each have two pairs of outputs, thus either of those two model preamps can be used to connect to each 9090DB driving the speakers, and the volume control on the preamp controls the volume of the whole configuration. If you are interested to know more about biamping, biwiring or using crosovers, simply type those words into the search box of www.google.com and plenty of listings will come up on those topics that you can read about.

B/F

 

[fliphandywork]

I am already bi-wiring with Audioquest Type 6 cable with Audioquest Banana plugs. Thanks for the info.

This is a very interesting idea. I am going to pursue it further. I am assuming that one 9090DB would power the tweeter/midrange and woofer. So each set of posts on the back of the speaker would have a seperate wire from the receiver?

 

[BeatleFred]

Basically, you can either vertically biamp of horizontally biamp. As I mentioned before, you can do a search Online to read more info on it, pros & cons etc...

If you were to use two different amps to biamp, its preferable to use the higher wattage amp to drive the woofers of both speakers and the lower wattage amp drives the tweeter/midrange in both speakers. This would be an example of horizontal biamping.

If you were to use two amps that were identical, such as two 9090DB's, then in my opinion, vertical biamping is the preferred configuration. One 9090DB drives the left speaker, the other 9090DB drives the right speaker. The 9090DB is a receiver but its preamp/power amp section are separable, so switch both 9090DB's into power amp mode and then a Sansui preamp with two pairs of outputs would connect to each 9090DB. (otherwise, you'd have to adjust the volume two times- the 9090DB volume on the right spkr and the 9090DB volume on the left spkr, and turn them up equally so the volume coming from each speaker is the same and one isnt louder than the other, comprende'? The preamp with two pairs of Outs takes care of that problem nicely, one single volume control on the preamp controls the overall volume. If you use a preamp with only one pair of outputs, then you'd need to get a splitter cable to send the output signal of the preamp to each 9090DB. Not a big deal to do that, but a preamp with two outs is certainly a very useful feature- and now you have a good justification to treat yourself to buying a nice CA-2000 preamp on Ebay (as well as a 2nd 9090DB)

Note the difference between the two types of biamping. With horizontal, one amp has to do the work of driving the woofers in BOTH speakers. But with vertical, each amp just handles the woofer in the one speaker theyre driving :yes:

When you connect each amp to the speaker in VB, it can look tricky because your amp has a left & right channel BUT, the amp is only driving the one speaker, so... how to connect the amp's right channel terminals when its driving the left speaker and vice versa for the other amp's left terminals driving the right speaker??

The connection is made as follows:

9090DB Left channel + to Speaker Left woofer terminal. Then 9090DB left channel - to Speaker Left's right woofer terminal. Then 9090DB right channel + to Speaker left's tweeter/midrange terminal. Then 9090DB right channel - to Speaker left's right tweeter/midrange terminal.

You then repeat this connection for the other 9090DB thats connected to the right speaker.

I imagine if you do a search Online, there will be diagrams of the connections which make it alot easier to visualize instead of writing it all out which I have nonetheles graciously done for you.

B/F

 

[Morden2004]

ProAc_Fan brings up a very good point - one that needs to be pasted on our walls above our audio gear: Speakers tend to "blow up" due to underpowering ( clipping) not overpowering.

If your speakers are rated for 100 watts, don't try driving them to painful levels with 10 watts. On the other hand, you can drive them to painful levels (but not beyond) with 150 watts.

Good point, ProAc_Fan.

 

[fliphandywork]

ProAc_Fan brings up a very good point - one that needs to be pasted on our walls above our audio gear: Speakers tend to "blow up" due to underpowering ( clipping) not overpowering.

I didn't know that fact. Thanks!!!

So if I were going to vertically bi-amp my setup... where would the subwoofer be located in the mix?

What should I expect to pay for a CA-3000 or CA-2000?

Would I also need a seperate tuner for the CA-3000 or CA-2000?

Thanks!

 

[Morden2004]

The thing to know here about clipping is the 'effective' power being fed into your speakers.

Before clipping, it is a max of 0.707 of the sine wave peak (no cat-calls from the techs, please - this is a simple explanation ). So, if your rails are 40 VDC then you can expect to produce 0.707 * 40 = 28.28 Vmax avg @ say 8 ohms = 3.6 amps which translates into approx. 100 watts. This is before clipping.

When you clip, you are creating a square wave - in simple terms we can think of this as supplying 40 VDC to the speakers because the 0.707 rule doesn’t apply exactly. At that point, we are generating 5 amps into 8 ohms for a staggering 200 watts into our 150 watt speakers.

One other piece of info is need here as well; square waves are, by definition, the sum of all frequencies so you will be supplying high frequency into the x-over and almost certainly the tweeters as well. This explains why the tweeters are usually the 1st to go!

Now as many of the techs will tell us (I'm sure) this is too simplified and it probably is. However, the 'real' bottom line is that if these speakers were rated for 150 watts and you're driving them with the big 100 watt amp and you crank it up real loud so you can hear it out on the patio while cracking your 5th Moosehead you are going to fry those speakers because you needed to run that volume control up to the limit to get the SPL you were looking for.

On the other hand, if you were driving these speakers with a 250 watt/ch amp you would generate the necessary SPL with 125 'safe' (sine wave) watts (for an example) and be well within the ratings for the speakers - and you not clipping and hence, no damage.

Does that help understand this seemingly wrong logic where more is better and less in not?

Paul

 

[fliphandywork]

Please bear with me on this. It is better to have a larger wpc amp when played loud than it is to have a smaller wpc amp played loud? If I am getting what your saying that makes since.

Got another question... when a speaker is bi-wireable and it says that it is capable of 25-200 watts, how does someone distinguish what the tweeter and the woofer are capable of? Are the numbers rated as a whole for the speaker?

 

[bolly]

I think from the part number you could probably determine a driver's power handling capacity. I've not experimented much with audio myself but I'm sure some one told me you can always go by ear.

Greg

 

[ProAc_Fan]

Hey Flip to be perfectly frank with you the only two speaker specs that concern me are sensitivity and load ratings. I'll always take a speakers watts rating with a huge grain of salt. All you really need to know are can your amp comfortably drive your choice of speakers to the volume level required in the listening room. IF the answer is "yes" thats all you really need to know. I've always used the half way rule with SS amps. If I need to turn the volume knob past it's halfway position to reach a fairly loud listening volume then I need more power or more efficient speakers.

Tubes amps are a whole different ballgame though and I usually ignore my half way rule.

Mike

 

[Morden2004]

If a 'whole' speaker is rated 25-200 then any of it's component parts can safely ???? handle 200 watts. The x-over and the drivers are all able to handle 200 watts else the manufacturer will be doing a recall

Paul

 

[Morden2004]

ProAc-Fan; not a bad rule at all. It keeps you safely out of the clipping zone.

Paul

 

[fliphandywork]

So if I were going to vertically bi-amp my setup... where would the subwoofer be located in the mix?

What should I expect to pay for a CA-3000 or CA-2000?

Would I also need a seperate tuner for the CA-3000 or CA-2000?

Thanks!

 

[fliphandywork]

"Proper implementation requires the use of multiple amplifiers and an outboard electronic crossover. This mandates bypassing the internal passive crossover, which requires work inside the speaker."

So would I need to add an outboard electronic crossover? The setup I would go with is:
(2) 9090DB's
(1) CA-2000

Do we think the benefit would be worth the expense of adding the extra equipment?

 

[jvm23605]

BA-5000

There ie one on ebay right now, out of Caracas, Venezuela with a selling price over $1500 (with a suggested shipping price of $200). Better hurry if this is what you want.