Balanced vs RCA Interconnects

Victor

Victor

Super Member
Hello All
I was wondering what people think of using balanced interconnects on C2200 or other McIntosh preamps with short cable runs?

When I got my C2200 I was excited to have the option of using balanced interconnects and I used them everywhere I could. Then I was doing a home demo on the MC2102 amp and I was surprised to find the C2200 & MC2102 sounded better to me using single ended RCA Interconnects. I think this is because the C2200 is not internally balanced, so using balanced interconnects adds a conversion stage on the input and output (my guess). Then I saw a post from Ron C. that said using balanced on the new MC275 bypasses the first tube, so does this mean the new MC275 is internally balanced? Is the MC2102 internally balanced?

I think the C100 and C200 are the only McIntosh preamps that are internally balanced, are any other McIntosh preamps internally balanced?

I am now using my C2200, MVP851 and MC162 all with short single ended RCA interconnects. I think it sounds better that way. I guess I should just be happy but I can't help tweaking to try to get the most out of my stereo. I'm curious what others think so please post your 2 cents worth.

Thanks in advance,
Victor
 
Me Too

Hello Victor!

I'll be very interested in any responses posted to your question. I currently am using balanced cables between my C2200 and MC2102, but I've been wondering about unbalanced cables.

Ron?

Kevin
 
Interesting

It would also be neato if someone could explain how the ground in a balanced setup is different from un. Ground isolated from chassis?

Murray
 
If one wants to play the cable game you are better off with unbalanced. Balanced cables are much more neutral. With unbalanced cables you have two dissimilar conductors so there will be more variation in the sound.
Balanced cables that use a twisted pair or a quad - like Canare, will be the most neutral as this tends to reject interference and noise products.
Balanced cables will be -40 DB in induced noise and all unbalanced cables pick up noise. In the pro sound world this is spec-ed as 96% or whatever on the shield effectiveness. Unbalanced high end audio cables would never be this honest as far as shield leakage specs. Then of course we have the whole Zobel network in a box cables which can fix mistakes by the designers of the components themselves!
Any cable is part of the circuit. Each must decide if they want to continue with a cable that is similar to what is on the other side of the jack on the back of the component. If exotic cables are such a plus why not tear into the gear and rewire the whole inside? Maybe the voice coils, and insides of the tubes and transistors too?
We each have to decide on where to spend money and how to tune a system to a room. In my experience the cable game is an unnecessary diversion. Yes, cables change the sound and unbalanced much more so. Is this the place to modify the sound though?
Ron-C
 
No, not at all. It's just that I get so sick of hearing about magic cables that it drives me nuts. My professor for electromagnetic theory was into stereo equipment and he was not into the magical properties of cables.
 
Yeah...that could be a good topic for this forum: "Esoterism and High End Audio" when I read those things about "directional" cables or hanging a brick over the amp or whatever else I laugh.
I wonder if those tweaking their systems all the time have time for the important thing in this hobby: music (and movies).
 
Here are some pics of a Kenwood KT5500 tuner
that was modified to accept balanced connects.
You will notice the added circuit board mounted
vertically.
 
Victor,
Don't know if the C2200 is "internally balanced". My experience is similar to yours, i.e. I like the sound with unbalanced cables better. I think the reason is the balanced cables bypass the gain control in my MC275 (as you say) & default to maximum gain. This induces a slight amount of hum in my Klipsch speakers & seems to accentuate high frequencies a bit.
 
Hi All, Thank you for the responses.

First of all thank you Ron and McIntosh for designing and making stereo equipment that has given me countless hours of enjoyment!!!!

Thanks glen65 for the great links.

I knew when I posted a question with the word cable in it I would get harsh responces and that is fine, I have thick skin so I can take it. My intention was not to start a cable debate but to find out the most direct simplest path for the signal through the equipment. As I said my cable runs are short and I don't have interference problems so if there are conversion stages wouldn't it be better to bypass them if possible? So to clarify my question do McIntosh preamps add a stage at the input and output to allow the use of ballanced cables and if so how complex are these stages and do they degrade the signal?

And yes Ron I have gone inside components to upgrade the wiring. My last speakers were KEF C95 and I new an upgrade was coming soon so if I blew my speakers there was not a lot to loose. I took the speakers apart and replaced all the internal board to board to speaker wiring and I removed the terminals and ran the wire directly from the crossovers to the amp. I used 14 guage solid core copper wire. After the mod there was a lot more detail and bass but the high frequencies were a little harsh, I guess I did not use the best wire for the job. It was a fun project if nothing else.

And yes arebalos I do at times get too overcritical with tweaking for my own good, especially when I am upgrading. I have been upgrading lately. It is just that McIntosh equipment is a significant investment for me and I want to get all the performance out of it possible. We are talking about minor differences here but if you can make a minor improvement to the already great McIntosh equipment that is something I get excited about!

Thanks All,
Victor
 
victor,

Almost all gear is unbalanced in the circuit design. Most 'balanced' amps are simply bridged. If a piece is truly balanced the parts count will double and so will the price. Neither the C2200 or the MC2102 is fully balanced. They both use an inverter, without gain or coloration,to flip and unflip the second conductor in a balanced pair. So yes this is more circuitry for less noise.
On McIntosh gear the gain is half on the unbalanced ins and outs since we have two which when combined equal the same level as unbalanced.
If you hear more noise using the balanced you have picked up gain somewhere. You may want to trim your inputs down on the C2200 set up menu. Lower them 6 Db and see what you come up with. Unless you are comparing identical levels any cable comparison between balanced and unbalanced is bunk.
Anytime you AB something you must first spend a lot of time trying to make the two sound the same. After you have exhausted every effort to match levels and so forth then you can compare.

Ron-C
 
Ron

From your description the inverter sounds like a simple switch. Is this done with a transistor?

You are right it was hard to do an AB test. What I did was hook up a balanced interconnect to C2200 output 1 and unbalanced to output 2 then switch the two and adjust volume. I know small volume changes could fool you into thinking the louder one sounded better that is why I wanted to get others opinions on this. I did not have a noise issue I just thought the set up with the unbalanced interconnect had more musical detail.

As a side note I was doing this AB test with my MC162 and a couple of times I had both outputs on at the same time. Could it hurt the amp to have input from both the balanced and unbalanced at the same time?

Thanks Again,
Victor
 
Ron

I just thought about my previous post and the inverter would not be a transistor that would imply active switching. Your flip/unflip confused me for a moment. So is the invertor simply hard wired to ground with no other electronic components?

Victor
 
All right I admit it my last post doesn't make sense either. I ask to learn not to annoy.

Please forgive me.
Victor
 
Last edited:
Victor said:
glen65

Nice mod!

Was there any sonic changes when you did this?

Victor
Click to expand...

This unit was already converted when I got it.
The active devices on that particular board are not used
anymore they use ICs now.
As far as sound goes I did seem to detect a very slight
improvement but mostly under long cable runs.
In most cases your not going to notice a difference in
sound with cable runs 6 ft or under.
 
A balanced cable contains two identical signals that are 180 degrees out of phase at the source and one side is flipped at entering the second component so that the signals are in phase. Two music signals added is twice as much signal. Any noise induced in the length of the cable will be in phase until at the end of the cable one side is flipped in phase so the music is now in phase and the noise is out of phase on the two cables. The out of phase signals will cancel each other yielding a 40 DB suppression of noise. This is huge.
McIntosh uses transistors, tubes or ICs depending on model to make the inverters. The inverters have no gain so are easy to make transparent.

Ron-C
 
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