Bass Response: Tones Controls vs. Subs

[1970's Fan]

My sub is connected from one sub out on my amp so I don’t know how I’d connect two subs. Having said that, I like the sound my one sub gives me. Speakers are funny. Recently, I thought my sub had stopped working. I checked my connections and they were fine. I then noted where my sub’s volume was, and turned it up. It wasn’t long before it sounded too much, so I turned it back down to where it was. After listening for a while to Ray Brown, I concluded that everything was spot on afer all. Strange! Another thing I noticed is, when watching telly, An ad. or a film comes on and I thnk, because of the sound of the music, that the subwoofer is switched on. I go to check because it sounds great, but the subwoofer is switched off, because I always switch it off at night. Sometimes the bass from my Monitor Audio Bronze X6’s, pleasantly surprise me.

 

[Superampman]

My sub is connected from one sub out on my amp so I don’t know how I’d connect two subs. Having said that, I like the sound my one sub gives me. Speakers are funny. Recently, I thought my sub had stopped working. I checked my connections and they were fine. I then noted where my sub’s volume was, and turned it up. It wasn’t long before it sounded too much, so I turned it back down to where it was. After listening for a while to Ray Brown, I concluded that everything was spot on afer all. Strange! Another thing I noticed is, when watching telly, An ad. or a film comes on and I thnk, because of the sound of the music, that the subwoofer is switched on. I go to check because it sounds great, but the subwoofer is switched off, because I always switch it off at night. Sometimes the bass from my Monitor Audio Bronze X6’s, pleasantly surprise me.

It's the broadcast signal. You're listening to someone else's eq.

 

[sKiZo]

Worth repeating ... no tone adjustments on either the receiver or sub can give you the accuracy you need in the bass area. Just too many variables. Standard analog equalizers also have limits built in as to the number of problem areas you can address. Once you've applied a DSP approach (either using software or something like the MiniDSP) to fine tuning a room, there's no going back.

It ain't all about da boom, eh. Being able to directly dial in each specific frequency and bandwidth allows one to hear each instrument distinctly, and any small deviation can drown that same instrument in the mud. Not saying that tweaking either can't result in substantial improvements, just saying you're only halfway there if that's where you stop.

And that said, no amount of tweaks can overcome bad mastering at the studio, and there's a lot of that we have to deal with. Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ...

 

[SWL3600]

I've found that horn loaded subs are the cleanest bass I've had. No rumble. No boom. I've had a lot of commercial DR subs come through here.

Using subs in a two channel system isn't about the boom. It is about filling in where your mains roll off and enhancing the mid and upper frequencies.

Those who say they don't need a sub probably have not heard one properly dialed in and/or the sub sucked. There's a lot of boomy, crap DR subs out there. Combine that with poor placement, no bass management etc. etc. it's no wonder that there are some ignorant comments being made against subwoofer use.

A good quality, properly dialed in sub(s) can't be denied.....and can't be detected. Only praised for how it betters the system vs. how it sounds without it. If you hear the sub, it ain't right.

 

[Tom Brennan]

Those who say they don't need a sub probably have not heard one properly dialed in and/or the sub sucked. There's a lot of boomy, crap DR subs out there. Combine that with poor placement, no bass management etc. etc. it's no wonder that there are some ignorant comments being made against subwoofer use.

I had good quality subs properly dialed in but nonetheless with later systems decided I didn’t need or want subs.

 

[Dave B.]

I see the subs function is to extend the low end of my speaker system and help integrate the system into the room environment. It's a one time set it (with tone controls set to flat) and forget it exercise, although it may take several days/weeks to get the balance right. I'll use the bass/treble controls to help compensate for imperfections in recordings.

You nailed it, Skipper. Accommodating variations in recordings is the big challenge. I used your sub setup method to get the balance right and haven't touched them since. The vast difference in recordings is amazing. One has to be ready to compensate!

Dave

 

[SWL3600]

I had good quality subs properly dialed in but nonetheless with later systems decided I didn’t need or want subs.

As I settle into middle age, my obsession with quality bass (ok, freakish bass) is not as important as it used to be. Since essentially rebuilding my speakers this last winter, my bass coming out of my speakers is phenomenal. I could pretty easily just call it good enough but I just can't deny the improvement since implementing a Mini-dsp 2x4 HD to control my subs. There is a learning curve involved that most would rather not deal with. I was one of them......glad I grew a pair and went for it.

 

[Tom Brennan]

As I settle into middle age, my obsession with quality bass (ok, freakish bass) is not as important as it used to be...

To clarify, I understand and acknowledge there are benefits to good subs. But as I went along I found that full range speaker systems with clean and fairly extended bass did the job satisfactorily.

 

[BilboBaggins]

I experimented with subs, but I found I could tell when the sub was doing its thing and it took away from my enjoyment of the music. I came to the conclusion it was differences in the subs preamp and amplifier, along with driver philosophy.

Since then, I find large speakers with good power handling and I guess you could say more the British Kef sound, even though I have a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls in a different room. I love them both! I have a few test songs I use to evaluate speakers based on my gear. That tells me quickly if a pair of speakers are for me. The others move on.

 

[mjw21a]

My sub IS a tone control.

But I never touch the knob.

I hear doing so regularly will send you blind and cause hair growth on your palms....

 

[FONSguy]

You left out speaker placement. This affects everything.

 

[hellhound94]

I can't remember the last time that I touched a tone control but one of my systems has a Yamaha integrated with an adjustable loudness control and I do admit to tweaking it a bit....even with a subwoofer in operation. I must have it set pretty good for my tastes because I haven't touched it in a long time.

 

[gdmoore28]

Ever since I switched over to a tube system, the low Bass increased to the point where it sounded like there was a subwoofer in the system, but there isn't, and doesn't need one.

Unexpectedly, that was exactly the result I experienced when I switched to tubes a few months ago. I switched from my Pioneer SX980/SX-D7000 to my Dynaco tube system, and while I expected some change in the sound, the increase in bass response was remarkable. I had always been very dubious of the claims made about the superiority of tube amplifiers, but the proof is impossible to deny. I've no idea why it has worked out this way, but I am certainly enjoying the results.

By the way, because almost all of my listening is done at low volumes, I keep my loudness compensation on at all times. In most receivers/pre-amps the loudness compensation is rolled off as the volume increases, so that matter is handled by the magic electronics.

GeeDeeEmm

 

[Wildcat]

If you can "hear" a sub it's not adjusted properly. The only time you should be aware of a sub(s) is when you turn it/them off. The loss of deep bass is instantly audible.

Exactly! It fills in that important bottom octave that is not so much heard as felt, or sensed. Even in classical recordings inside a hall, there is a certain low-frequency energy that may not be completely music-related that comes across more lifelike when a properly-tuned sub is introduced.

 

[mjw21a]

Unexpectedly, that was exactly the result I experienced when I switched to tubes a few months ago. I switched from my Pioneer SX980/SX-D7000 to my Dynaco tube system, and while I expected some change in the sound, the increase in bass response was remarkable. I had always been very dubious of the claims made about the superiority of tube amplifiers, but the proof is impossible to deny. I've no idea why it has worked out this way, but I am certainly enjoying the results.

By the way, because almost all of my listening is done at low volumes, I keep my loudness compensation on at all times. In most receivers/pre-amps the loudness compensation is rolled off as the volume increases, so that matter is handled by the magic electronics.

GeeDeeEmm

That's very much specific to the amp. I've found that often times amps utilising 12AX series preamp tubes and EL34 power tubes are midrangey and are rolled off at both extremes (treble & bass). Amps using the older octal preamp tubes combined with KT120 power tubes don't have this roll off and combine what I like best about tube and solid state amplification. Go figure right?

 

[JoeESP9]

Unexpectedly, that was exactly the result I experienced when I switched to tubes a few months ago. I switched from my Pioneer SX980/SX-D7000 to my Dynaco tube system, and while I expected some change in the sound, the increase in bass response was remarkable. I had always been very dubious of the claims made about the superiority of tube amplifiers, but the proof is impossible to deny. I've no idea why it has worked out this way, but I am certainly enjoying the results.

By the way, because almost all of my listening is done at low volumes, I keep my loudness compensation on at all times. In most receivers/pre-amps the loudness compensation is rolled off as the volume increases, so that matter is handled by the magic electronics.

GeeDeeEmm

FWIW: Most loudness controls are tied to a 50% loudness tap on the volume control. This means that for any rotation past 50% on the volume control there is little to no loudness compensation applied. In addition said compensation diminishes as the volume control approach's 50% rotation.

 

[gdmoore28]

That's very much specific to the amp. I've found that often times amps utilising 12AX series preamp tubes and EL34 power tubes are midrangey and are rolled off at both extremes (treble & bass). Amps using the older octal preamp tubes combined with KT120 power tubes don't have this roll off and combine what I like best about tube and solid state amplification. Go figure right?

I'm not a tech, so I have no idea why my power amps have made such a dramatic improvement in what I hear. I run them (two Dynaco Mk IV w/Dynaco preamp) with the Altec speakers shown in my avatar, but had exactly the same result when trying them with a couple of Klipsch Heresies. Here's what Dynaco had to say about the Mk IV amps:

The Mark IV Amplifier uses a circuit arrangement based on that of the Dynakits Mark II and Mark III which have become world famous for superior quality while essentially simple and trouble free.

The new 7199 tube is used as a pentode high gain voltage amplifier directly coupled to a cathodyne phase inverter. All parameters are adjusted for minimum distortion.

This type of phase inverter has the unique advantage that its operation is independent of tube ageing so that no adjustments are required in maintaining optimum performance.

An internal capacitive feedback loop balances the phase inverter at the highest frequencies, and the arrangement provides accurately balanced driving signals to the output tubes, which are EL-34's operated well below their maximum ratings.

The output tubes use a fixed bias arrangement which is set through use of Dyna Biaset (patent pending) which provides optimum linearity of the tubes and minimizes the effects of unbalanced components.

The connection of the output tubes includes a small percentage of screen loading which improves the regulation of the output stage and makes it comparatively uncritical of load impedance.

Specifications
Power output: 40W into 8Ω (mono)

Frequency response: 20Hz to 20kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 1%

Damping factor: 15

Input sensitivity: 1.3V

Signal to noise ratio: 90dB

Speaker load impedance: 4Ω to 16Ω

Valve complement: 2 x EL-34, 1 x 7199, 1 x GZ-34, 1 x selenium rectifier

Dimensions: 5 x 14 x 6.5 inches

Weight: 20lbs

GeeDeeEmm

From the interweb: The Dynaco Mk. IV Power Amps

 

[triode17]

Unexpectedly, that was exactly the result I experienced when I switched to tubes a few months ago. I switched from my Pioneer SX980/SX-D7000 to my Dynaco tube system, and while I expected some change in the sound, the increase in bass response was remarkable. I had always been very dubious of the claims made about the superiority of tube amplifiers, but the proof is impossible to deny. I've no idea why it has worked out this way, but I am certainly enjoying the results.

By the way, because almost all of my listening is done at low volumes, I keep my loudness compensation on at all times. In most receivers/pre-amps the loudness compensation is rolled off as the volume increases, so that matter is handled by the magic electronics.

GeeDeeEmm

BTW, if you are using the PAS preamp, the volume control has a loudness tap at about 10 o'clock, so it would rolloff as you increase the volume past that point. I eliminated the stock volume control for a three pin ALPS Blue Velvet so the loudness had to be disabled. I never liked Loudness switches because they generally boost the Bass way too much. The slight treble boost was eliminated some years ago.

 

[mjw21a]

I'm not a tech, so I have no idea why my power amps have made such a dramatic improvement in what I hear. I run them (two Dynaco Mk IV w/Dynaco preamp) with the Altec speakers shown in my avatar, but had exactly the same result when trying them with a couple of Klipsch Heresies. Here's what Dynaco had to say about the Mk IV amps:

The Mark IV Amplifier uses a circuit arrangement based on that of the Dynakits Mark II and Mark III which have become world famous for superior quality while essentially simple and trouble free.

The new 7199 tube is used as a pentode high gain voltage amplifier directly coupled to a cathodyne phase inverter. All parameters are adjusted for minimum distortion.

This type of phase inverter has the unique advantage that its operation is independent of tube ageing so that no adjustments are required in maintaining optimum performance.

An internal capacitive feedback loop balances the phase inverter at the highest frequencies, and the arrangement provides accurately balanced driving signals to the output tubes, which are EL-34's operated well below their maximum ratings.

The output tubes use a fixed bias arrangement which is set through use of Dyna Biaset (patent pending) which provides optimum linearity of the tubes and minimizes the effects of unbalanced components.

The connection of the output tubes includes a small percentage of screen loading which improves the regulation of the output stage and makes it comparatively uncritical of load impedance.

Specifications
Power output: 40W into 8Ω (mono)

Frequency response: 20Hz to 20kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 1%

Damping factor: 15

Input sensitivity: 1.3V

Signal to noise ratio: 90dB

Speaker load impedance: 4Ω to 16Ω

Valve complement: 2 x EL-34, 1 x 7199, 1 x GZ-34, 1 x selenium rectifier

Dimensions: 5 x 14 x 6.5 inches

Weight: 20lbs

GeeDeeEmm

From the interweb: The Dynaco Mk. IV Power Amps

I'm not a techy either unfortunately. I'd say the Dynaco's are just a design done well. I've read a number of times that voicing is more to do with design of the amp than tubes used. I've really only owned 3x Chi-Fi tube amps so my experience is coloured by that. I daresay someone will be along shortly to point out that I'm totally wrong

 

[sqlsavior]

I hear doing so regularly will send you blind and cause hair growth on your palms....

Perhaps I should have said knobs (plural).

That would refer to a different thread.