Battery breakthrough for Envia and GM

I'm sorry, but this is factually false.

Don't believe me? Look up "money multiplier effect".

In general, money spent by government programs has about HALF the "multiplier effect' as that financed by private enterprise. This is a fact, that has been shown in scores of economic studies over the last 50+ years.

In fact, in many cases, the government never makes back it's "investment"...

Each dollar the government takes in taxes, is one less that's available for private investment. It's simple math... that dollar can't be both in the hands of a private investor, and in the hands of government, at the same time...

There have been cases where government 'kick-starting' a program has had beneficial results- but there's a time- and that time comes very quickly, by historical evidence- where the technology HAS to STAND ON ITS OWN, or fail. That's the problem here- when is electric car technology going to be able to do that?

Regards,
Gordon.

Yeah, like farming, coal and petroleum are standing on their own!






Oh...wait...never mind.

-D
 
Gordon, you act like this is the 10th electric vehicle to make a go with your shouting "when will it stand on it's own!!". Not counting the small scale EV-1, this is like serious attempt number one. Why the exasperated panic? The problem with theoretical capitalism doing the right thing for people is that it's a theory. Things look great on paper then in reality they fall apart. Or, you know, get bought out and killed by big oil. Wouldn't want us to curb our addiction to crude in any way.
 
I'm sorry, but this is factually false.

Don't believe me? Look up "money multiplier effect".

In general, money spent by government programs has about HALF the "multiplier effect' as that financed by private enterprise. This is a fact, that has been shown in scores of economic studies over the last 50+ years.

In fact, in many cases, the government never makes back it's "investment"...

Each dollar the government takes in taxes, is one less that's available for private investment. It's simple math... that dollar can't be both in the hands of a private investor, and in the hands of government, at the same time...

There have been cases where government 'kick-starting' a program has had beneficial results- but there's a time- and that time comes very quickly, by historical evidence- where the technology HAS to STAND ON ITS OWN, or fail. That's the problem here- when is electric car technology going to be able to do that?

Regards,
Gordon.

Took your comment, read up on it quickly, been a little while since I've read on it.

A clarification of my comment, my brain power is usually a little drained by the time I get to posting on AK:

This theory is true, and it is proven to work. Grants and gov't programs generate something from nothing, and the gov't recoups all the money and then some.

I am referring to tax revenue in the short term. It doesn't create new dollars so much as it creates new revenues. This is very important in times of recession.

The intent of the government is not necessarily to create new money, it is more likely to create a new knowledge based economy. This is what they are generating. Something from nothing.

I think that I'd very much be able to further my argument, however, I don't believe that this is either the correct thread or forum for discussion taxation, it's much to easy for political ideological to be brought to the table.
 
The real "$64000 question" is:

What would the Volt have to sell for, for GM to make anywhere remotely close to the profit they make on even their least-profitable gasoline cars, without ANY sort of subsidies or extra tax breaks?

I know the answer to that, is NOT $42000. Much higher, probably.

And at that point- yes people WOULD balk at paying THAT much. Not too many people I know, routinely buying $50K+ cars.

Cast your mind back to when cars were first introduced. They were not for everyone - they were a luxury. It took 23 years from the time Karl Benz started producing cars in 1885 until the first affordable car, the Ford Model T was introduced in 1908. Prices will come down as the technology is refined, however, there is the need for early adopters to purchase the cars at a higher price (and perhaps a lower quality) before we get there.

As mentioned- it's a great technology study. Practical car? Not yet. They will get there- but to market this as "ready technology" is BS...

Actually, I'd argue the Volt is very practical, when compared to the EV-1 or Nissan Leaf. Even more so than the Prius or Insight as well due to the serial powertrain design. That being said, it doesn't meet my needs at present (I need a wagon), although it may meet my wife's needs when she's ready to trade in her old Volvo. Yes, there are more advances that need to be made in the technology, but to say that it's not "ready" because of this is a flawed argument. By this logic, Chevy shouldn't have sold the original Corvette as it had drum brakes, a 150bhp carburetted I-6 motor and a solid rear axle. Clearly it's inferior to a modern Corvette with a 430bhp V8, independent rear suspension and massive disc brakes. :D

-D
 
looks like they can do 100 miles already .. i see the volt only does 35 miles

Yeah, but those are totally different vehicles. The pure electric goes 100 miles then stops. At that point you call a tow truck or get your feet working. The Volt actually does closer to 50 miles, then your gas powered generator kicks in and you can continue driving from coast to coast without plugging in once.
 
I'm sorry, but this is factually false.

Regards,
Gordon.

Trying to wrap my head around this.

Relative opens a small business with government subsidy.
Business is profitable and grows, now employing 15+ people.
A decent portion of each employee's paycheck goes to taxes.
A decent portion of every sale rung up goes to taxes.
A decent portion of the year-end profits go to taxes.

The subsidy that helped fund the business cannot be paid back why?



Not the same discussion at all, but I hear people complaining about gov't bailouts/assistance of new/struggling businesses in the same breath that they complain the pres. is to blame for unemployment.
"Don't take action to prevent unemployment, but you suck for not fixing unemployment".

Cake and eat it too, and all that jazz...
 
...

Not the same discussion at all, but...

Quit it. This thread is about emerging technology in the automotive industry.

Here's a nudie of the Fisker:
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6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01348710c870970c-800wi.png
 
Yeah, but those are totally different vehicles. The pure electric goes 100 miles then stops. At that point you call a tow truck or get your feet working. The Volt actually does closer to 50 miles, then your gas powered generator kicks in and you can continue driving from coast to coast without plugging in once.

Precisely. And that's a large part of the genius of the Volt's drive system. Up to its battery-only range limit of 50 miles or so, it gives you all the environmental advantages and low energy costs of a pure battery EV, without the fear of getting stranded miles from home or having to kill five hours while you wait for your battery to recharge. Range anxiety -- after cost, the single biggest obstacle to wider acceptance of EVs -- doesn't exist with the Volt.
 
I think the elimination of range-anxiety is an even bigger deal than the price barrier. Without it, it's not viable. It's a deal breaker for everybody on a realistic level.

I walked past a Fisker dealer in LA and simply could not understand who would buy it out there. Technical question... if you aren't moving, is any battery power used? Because in LA, when you go for a 15 mile journey, it could take 20 minutes or 2 hours, you just never know. I'm sure a bit would be used but I'm curious if its like the Hybrids and essentially shuts down when stopped.
 
Precisely. And that's a large part of the genius of the Volt's drive system. Up to its battery-only range limit of 50 miles or so, it gives you all the environmental advantages and low energy costs of a pure battery EV, without the fear of getting stranded miles from home or having to kill five hours while you wait for your battery to recharge. Range anxiety -- after cost, the single biggest obstacle to wider acceptance of EVs -- doesn't exist with the Volt.
yep - its a very exciting American car!
Now if they make one in a small sportswagon or smaller SUV package, I'm in!
 
I think the elimination of range-anxiety is an even bigger deal than the price barrier. Without it, it's not viable. It's a deal breaker for everybody on a realistic level.

I walked past a Fisker dealer in LA and simply could not understand who would buy it out there. Technical question... if you aren't moving, is any battery power used? Because in LA, when you go for a 15 mile journey, it could take 20 minutes or 2 hours, you just never know. I'm sure a bit would be used but I'm curious if its like the Hybrids and essentially shuts down when stopped.

Yes. When it's on, certain functions are retained (climate control and radio for instance), but there is no equivalent to idling in an ICE. The generator motor activates at a certain power level regardless of movement.
 
Now if they make one in a small sportswagon or smaller SUV package, I'm in!

And therein lies the problem. By the time you make it bigger, 4 wheel drive, and hang all the extra BS on it, you're back down to a 30mpg vehicle.

Nobody wants a tiny cramped up vehicle that's only good for going to work or the grocery store.
 
I want a Smart Car, I guess that is kind of a small cramped vehicle only good for certain things. But I don't know that its all that cramped for two people...it's just not hauling around a lot of empty space and added weight. It's just a reaction to how I use a car...I live in a cramped city with mostly street parking, and have decided that a smaller car would limit my spending money on things I don't need, because I couldn't haul them home.
 
And therein lies the problem. By the time you make it bigger, 4 wheel drive, and hang all the extra BS on it, you're back down to a 30mpg vehicle.

Nobody wants a tiny cramped up vehicle that's only good for going to work or the grocery store.

Don't need 4wd - I just want enough enclosed length that I can load a couple of tower speakers and such in it - speaker haulin' duty ...
maybe a few bags of mulch and such in the spring - you know, normal homeowner stuff.

Heck, the vandersteen 2CEs I bought recently weren't that big - certainly not like the JBL 4341s I bought 5 years back!
I could have carried the Vandys in my 1990 Honda SI (it was called a "hatchback", but was more sportwagon).

I don't want a SMART car or Fiat 500, I don't need a Denale or Expedition ...
and I don't want a PRIUS Station Wagon either ...
 
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I'm sorry, but this is factually false.

Don't believe me? Look up "money multiplier effect".

In general, money spent by government programs has about HALF the "multiplier effect' as that financed by private enterprise. This is a fact, that has been shown in scores of economic studies over the last 50+ years.

In fact, in many cases, the government never makes back it's "investment"...

Each dollar the government takes in taxes, is one less that's available for private investment. It's simple math... that dollar can't be both in the hands of a private investor, and in the hands of government, at the same time...

There have been cases where government 'kick-starting' a program has had beneficial results- but there's a time- and that time comes very quickly, by historical evidence- where the technology HAS to STAND ON ITS OWN, or fail. That's the problem here- when is electric car technology going to be able to do that?

Regards,
Gordon.

There's this whole "internet" thing...

Yeah, but those are totally different vehicles. The pure electric goes 100 miles then stops. At that point you call a tow truck or get your feet working. The Volt actually does closer to 50 miles, then your gas powered generator kicks in and you can continue driving from coast to coast without plugging in once.

And the series design is more efficient than a traditional hybrid with the parallel drivetrains. The gas engine can run at its most efficient point all the time, rather than varying efficiency with the speed it's being forced to turn.

I think the elimination of range-anxiety is an even bigger deal than the price barrier. Without it, it's not viable. It's a deal breaker for everybody on a realistic level.

I walked past a Fisker dealer in LA and simply could not understand who would buy it out there. Technical question... if you aren't moving, is any battery power used? Because in LA, when you go for a 15 mile journey, it could take 20 minutes or 2 hours, you just never know. I'm sure a bit would be used but I'm curious if its like the Hybrids and essentially shuts down when stopped.

If memory serves, the Fisker is a series hybrid like the Volt. It should still get around LA just fine.

And therein lies the problem. By the time you make it bigger, 4 wheel drive, and hang all the extra BS on it, you're back down to a 30mpg vehicle.

Nobody wants a tiny cramped up vehicle that's only good for going to work or the grocery store.

AWD or 4WD in a pure electric or series hybrid vehicle wouldn't add much weight, just two more electric motors.

Even if it only doubled the economy of a standard SUV, 30-45 MPG is a helluva lot better than 15-20.

----------------

This thread is a great example of that old principle: "those who hate shall hate henceforth."
 
This thread is a great example of that old principle: "those who hate shall hate henceforth."

Gee, I thought it was a discussion between guys who say the Volt is the greatest thing ever and guys saying it isn't. I don't see much hate just a whole lot of gray area between those sides.
 
Gee, I thought it was a discussion between guys who say the Volt is the greatest thing ever and guys saying it isn't. I don't see much hate just a whole lot of gray area between those sides.

Don't forget those pining away about how ugly it is. ;)
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