Best Cartridge Under $100 for Pioneer Pl-12D?

[h3ll0]

I've so far looked at the shure m97xe,Grado Black,Ortofon OM10,Ortofon 2m red,Shure M44,Audiotechnica AT95E, and LP gear Deft 2.

The cart I have currently is a shure m75b with a not very good generic conical stylus, however I am getting a Jico elliptical for it.

What cart would be best for my tonearm and would any of them be an upgrade to the cart I already have?

 

[beatcomber]

Grados won't work, the arm is too heavy. I believe the same applied to the Ortofons.

I have gotten very good results using a Shure M44G and a Shure M97xE (brush down) on my PL-15D, which is the semi-auto version of the PL-12D.

I have also gotten good results with an M91ED + JICO-made EVG elliptical, which presumably is comparable to the JICO elliptical for the M75ED. Since you already have the body, that is the one I would choose. It also happens to be one of my favorites carts!

 

[h3ll0]

Grados won't work, the arm is too heavy. I believe the same applied to the Ortofons.

I have gotten very good results using a Shure M44G and a Shure M97xE (brush down) on my PL-15D, which is the semi-auto version of the PL-12D.

I have also gotten good results with an M91ED + JICO-made EVG elliptical, which presumably is comparable to the JICO elliptical for the M75ED. Since you already have the body, that is the one I would choose. It also happens to be one of my favorites carts!

I've heard the m91 is electrically the same as the m75 just with a different plastic shroud. Also thanks for your input beatcomber.

 

[beatcomber]

I've heard the m91 is electrically the same as the m75 just with a different plastic shroud. Also thanks for your input beatcomber.

That is correct! The only difference is the 75 has a flip-down stylus guard.

75 styli will fit the 91 body, but not vice versa (unless you cut away some plastic).

 

[mdelisa]

Maybe you guys can help -- I just was gifted a mint PL-12 and will use it as a back-up turntable -- which of the following is the best to use with the PL-12, as I have them all, accumulated over the years:

Shure M71 MB-D
AT 91E
AT13Ea
ADC ELM 900

Any suggestions would be much appreciated! Mike

 

[malden]

Grados won't work, the arm is too heavy. I believe the same applied to the Ortofons.

I have gotten very good results using a Shure M44G and a Shure M97xE (brush down) on my PL-15D, which is the semi-auto version of the PL-12D.

The Shure M44G is a high compliance cartridge so it is better suited to low mass tone-arms. The M97xE is also high compliance and will work in a heavier arm with the stabilizing brush down.

I have also gotten good results with an M91ED + JICO-made EVG elliptical, which presumably is comparable to the JICO elliptical for the M75ED. Since you already have the body, that is the one I would choose. It also happens to be one of my favorites carts!

As far as I know, there is no EVG made JICO. Seth, @noisemodule, who is the JICO rep here on AK has confirmed that there is no relationship between the two companies.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

That is correct! The only difference is the 75 has a flip-down stylus guard.

75 styli will fit the 91 body, but not vice versa (unless you cut away some plastic).

M75 also is lower distortion in practice. Jico styli are superb for a M75. I like the AT 95e for a new cartridge which is excellent with this tonearm in your price range.

 

[malden]

Well, I don't know that he established that. He was very evasive and said he didn't know and questioned the information presented. That's not the same. I have conversations that go like that with my three year old all the time when it's clear she knows and there's a connection that she doesn't want to recognize, but it exists all the same.

see next post...slightly more intelligent than a three year old...

 

[malden]

I'm not bursting anything. Just trying to figure out how this situation developed. I mean, 10 years ago nobody new the name JICO. Now it seems that many parties want to capitalize on the name recognition. It's not a terrible position for the company to be in, but if managed poorly -or not at all- it won't be good for JICO or those in need of a decent replacement stylus.



Agreed, that's why I'm reaching out, so that I can figure out how to improve the situation. I guess my point was, what makes JICO the focus of attention? Its a small industry and word gets around. I suspect, and received some confirmation, the answer is partly because JICO is notable for being the only 3rd party replacement stylus manufacturer with a consumer oriented presence.



Well, the Super Analogue Stylus (SAS) could be considered a sub-brand, as it is not a single product but a line of styli which share certain characteristic materials, specifications, and build quality. The next generation that is in development should also be considered a sub-brand under the JICO umbrella. It will be in the SAS "family", but different in at least one critical way. Also, these styli are always clearly labeled with the JICO logo in addition to the SAS logo. Other than that, no there are no other sub-brands under JICO.

I think what you are asking is perhaps if Nippon Precision Jewel Industry has any alternate brands/parallel product lines, such as EVG or Tonar. It does not. Those are independent brands which have been built on their own merit. Regardless of where those brands might source their product from, they should be treated with the respect they deserve. When speculation arises around the product sources of those brands, it only serves to undermine the effort that each brand (and manufacturer) has exerted to differentiate itself.

It's understandable though, in a market that has been defined vagueness, that consumers would want to know if an off-brand replacement stylus is from a specific manufacturer, particularly when that manufacturer has a respected brand of their own.

If I were at liberty to comment on, confirm, or share details on specific cases, I would. Anyone reading my posts as carefully as they have been written will surely notice the points on which I have been conspicuously silent. I regret that I cannot be more forthcoming at present, but hope that will change in time.

Having said all that, if people have further questions perhaps this is the time to establish a new thread. I feel poorly for having thoroughly hijacked this one. My apologies to the OP...

There has been a lot of buzz surrounding the possibility of a Jico / EVG connection. I have expressed my skepticism and have received some push-back. I even went so far as to buy several EVG (as well as some other brands) to compare them to styli bought directly from Jico. Not having access to a high-powered microscope or test equipment, I had to relay on my eyes and ears.

Listening tests are extremely subjective, but to my ear the Jico styli just sounded more consistent when playing a variety of records, old, new, warped, flat, rock, jazz, classical, etc.. I arrived at this conclusion over a period of about 2 years by listening to various styli, including styli produced by the cartridge manufacturer, mostly Shure.

The other difference I see between Jico and other brands is in the build quality. Jico styli appear to be built with similar suspension and magnet structures as the original styli, the other brands do not. This is what made me skeptical regarding the Jico / EVG connection.

One aspect of build quality that will always be unknown to the end user is the level of polishing of the diamond tip and the accuracy of setting the tip on the cantilever. My guess would be that a $20.00 stylus would not receive the same level of quality control as a more expensive one.

 

[revox-b77]

Maybe you guys can help -- I just was gifted a mint PL-12 and will use it as a back-up turntable -- which of the following is the best to use with the PL-12, as I have them all, accumulated over the years:

Shure M71 MB-D
AT 91E
AT13Ea
ADC ELM 900

I would go in the direction of finding a nice vintage OEM elliptical replacement for the 13Ea. Try Stereo Needles ( no affiliation ). That cart will work well on the PL-12

 

[MCM_Fan]

see next post...slightly more intelligent than a three year old...

Well, certainly not at the three year old level, but nowhere in that overly long, intentionally vague response does the JICO rep actually deny that JICO manufacturers products for EVG.

I think what you are asking is perhaps if Nippon Precision Jewel Industry has any alternate brands/parallel product lines, such as EVG or Tonar. It does not. Those are independent brands which have been built on their own merit.

Ok, he says JICO does not own the EVG or Tonar brands. No surprise there.

Then he says that EVG does not actually manufacture their own products, that they source them from someone else, but he intentionally does not deny that JICO is the source.

Regardless of where those brands might source their product from, they should be treated with the respect they deserve.

This is all marketing double speak, but he completely leaves the door open that JICO could possibly be an OEM manufacturer that produces products for EVG to EVG's specs. It's very common in other much larger industries to have a very small number of OEMs that produce all the products for a huge number of brands. I don't know why it would be any different in this case. Exactly how many stylus manufacturers are there in Japan? JICO and Nagaoka, how many others? There are certainly more brands than there are manufacturers. Someone in Japan is making those products for EVG. It could be JICO, or it could be someone else. There is absolutely no way to be certain, one way or the other, from the quotes you have provided.

If you want to know for sure, ask the JICO rep a simple yes or no question: Does JICO manufacture products for EVG. Even though it's a very simple yes or no question, I'd be very surprised if you get a one word answer.

When speculation arises around the product sources of those brands, it only serves to undermine the effort that each brand (and manufacturer) has exerted to differentiate itself.

That sounds an awful lot like: whether or not JICO makes products for EVG, which I have neither confirmed nor denied, we don't want other brands capitalizing on the JICO brand name to help sell their lower cost, competing products.

Again, an overly long, intentionally vague response to a very simple question.

Please note, I am not claiming the EVG products are identical to the JICO branded products. JICO could add features to their products (soldered tie wire, for example) to help differentiate them from any OEM products they may (or may not) manufacture for other brands.

 

[malden]

I think that you alone @malden have established that JICO branded styli sourced from the JICO website are different from EVG styli at least regarding the Shure offerings. The JICO direct Pickering/Stanton styli from ebay seller EMJ on ebay also look different than the EVG offerings, if only for the name plate. I really ought to get one and take it apart and compare it to an EVG.

I'm glad you recognize that I have the only one trying to inform the AK community that there is a difference between JICO styli (bought from JICO) and the common EVG brand that is available through just about any online source. I take that as a compliment. Until I pointed these differences out between the two brands, just about everyone, including some esteemed AK members, were under the assumption that they were the same. But, I've been following these threads closely for the past several years and there are other AK members that have looked closely at the EVG styli they have and have confirmed that they are built differently than the original Shure styli and JICO, although they have not been as persistent in getting this message across as I have been.

However, this does not establish that EVG is not a budget sub-brand of Jico or that Jico isn't the manufacturer or major supplier of parts to whoever assembles EVG styli. Also, discontinued Jico Shibata styli for the PC 3000 (Pickering XSV/3000) were released at considerable discount prices in EVG/Russell/Jico packaging. All three names appear on the packaging whoever puts it there.

This also does not establish that they are the same. It doesn't matter where EVG or Pfanstiehl source their parts from, they are simply not built as well as the styli available directly from JICO, which by the way, are built like the original Shure styli. And that is my point.

There is some connection there. It's obvious.

What's obvious to me, or to anyone who cares to look, is that JICO simply builds a better stylus than EVG, and you don't need to take them apart to see the differences.

 

[beatcomber]

If you want to know for sure, ask the JICO rep a simple yes or no question: Does JICO manufacture products for EVG. Even though it's a very simple yes or no question, I'd be very surprised if you get a one word answer.

From their POV, it's none of our business who they have wholesale relationships with, especially since they promote their own retail line. Does Trader Joe's reveal who makes their frozen lasagna?

 

[malden]

Well, certainly not at the three year old level, but nowhere in that overly long, intentionally vague response does the JICO rep actually deny that JICO manufacturers products for EVG.

Where is the EVG representative in all of this?

 

[MCM_Fan]

This also does not establish that they are the same. It doesn't matter where EVG or Pfanstiehl source their parts from

Yes, it does.

they are simply not built as well as the styli available directly from JICO, which by the way, are built like the original Shure styli.

The "way" something is built isn't just about what features it has. The Normarh stylus I received recently, by mistake, had the soldered tie wire and square magnets, just like a genuine Shure stylus, but it sounded awful and tracked poorly. The EVG I received tracked and sounded way, way better then the Normarh. It tracks just as well and actually sounds better to me than a genuine NOS made in Mexico Shure replacement stylus that cost a lot more than the EVG.

My sample size is small, but my one experience with an EVG stylus was extremely positive. If, and I mean if, JICO manufacturers products for EVG (as it has not been established either way), it would not be in the interest of either part for them to supply a product of poor quality. It would damage the reputation of both brands. They may leave out features like a soldered tie wire to save money and differentiate their own branded products, but they would not supply a poorly mounted diamond of poor quality.

 

[MCM_Fan]

Where is the EVG representative in all of this?

Doing the smart thing and not publicly commenting on a contract that was signed in private that very likely includes confidentiality and non disclosure verbiage.

 

[malden]

Doing the smart thing and not publicly commenting on a contract that was signed in private that very likely includes confidentiality and non disclosure verbiage.

The point of my comment regarding the JICO / EVG connection is that they are not built the same. That's it.

Speculating on contracts signed or agreements made in private is somewhat absurd. We're talking about a couple of needles here.

 

[MCM_Fan]

The point of my comment regarding the JICO / EVG connection is that they are not built the same. That's it.

Speculating on contracts signed or agreements made in private is somewhat absurd. We're talking about a couple of needles here.

I agree. But, you're the one who went to all the trouble to post those long responses full of vague double speak from the JICO rep which proved absolutely nothing.

I'm actually glad you posted them here. You've stated several times in multiple threads that the JICO rep denied any JICO/EVG connection. Now that I've read his actual words, I see no such denial.

 

[beatcomber]

The point of my comment regarding the JICO / EVG connection is that they are not built the same. That's it.

IF JICO makes EVG's styli, it's clear that they are made to hit a very low price point... which is why JICO wouldn't want their name associated with it. They reputation is based on providing higher quality products.

Speculating on contracts signed or agreements made in private is somewhat absurd. We're talking about a couple of needles here.

Nothing absurd about it at all. Business between two companies is typically done in private.

 

[malden]

I've so far looked at the shure m97xe,Grado Black,Ortofon OM10,Ortofon 2m red,Shure M44,Audiotechnica AT95E, and LP gear Deft 2.

The cart I have currently is a shure m75b with a not very good generic conical stylus, however I am getting a Jico elliptical for it.

What cart would be best for my tonearm and would any of them be an upgrade to the cart I already have?

Back to the OP....

I run a M75 cartridge in my Empire 398. I've tried several styli in it but the best sounding and tracking in that tone-arm, is the JICO N75EJ, (.4x.7 mil elliptical, tracks between 1.5 and 3 grams)

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1458

I'm not sure about your tonearm, but if it can handle a higher compliance stylus, the N75ED (.3 x .7 mil elliptical, tracks between .75 and 1.5 grams) would be my first choice...

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1022