Beyond "flat" frequency response is there something else a cartridge should be doing?

[Cosmo-D]

So I've been doing some digging. It seems like a Denon DL-103, or maybe a 301/II will basically yield flat frequency response across the entire audible range (based on the graphs provided by Denon). It seems like some variants of Shure V-15 are also basically flat. Shouldn't that be the ultimate goal of cartridge: to reproduce the information on the disc? I rarely see cartridges like brought up in "serious" audiophile discussions.

Is there something I'm missing? If a cartridge has flat response across the spectrum it should be relaying all the details there are to relay. Is there something about vinyl reproduction that I'm not considering here? If your goal isn't "perfect" reproduction then that is fine. I just feel like there are cheaper ways of obtaining a particular "sound" than changing out your cartridge.

 

[Doug G.]

For stereo, separation is all important.

Doug

 

[sqlsavior]

Also tracking ability and tracing precision, which could easily be affected by the arm it's mounted on, not to mention alignment, including VTA, not to mention stylus profile...

BTW, frequency response is not always a good measure of linearity, which is the goal of high-fidelity, but hard to measure. The thing about frequency response is that it is basically a measurement of loudness as frequency varies. The sound at that input frequency could be composed of not only the input signal but also various unwanted distortions and noise along with it. A tweeter might do nothing but buzz above a certain frequency, but as long as the buzzing is the right volume, flat frequency response can be claimed.

 

[Beobloke]

I'd add stereo separation, distortion and tracking ability including consistent behaviour across the inner and outer grooves.

 

[ETI_5000]

A tweeter might do nothing but buzz above a certain frequency, but as long as the buzzing is the right volume, flat frequency response can be claimed.

That's distortion...

Which brings me to another important factor of cartridges, distortion. That's related to various factors including stylus shape, but is significant in how cartridges sound. Better sounding cartridges can usually be measured to have lower distortion.

To give an example, a fat conical stylus, like that on the 1964-designed Shure M44-7, will introduce distortion such as pinch distortion, where the fat 0.7mil (18 micron) stylus won't fit through the curves in the groove, so gets 'pinched' upwards out of the groove, producing distortion. A thin stylus such as the Audio-Technica Microline tip (aka Namiki Micro-ridge), the thinnest and best shape stylus shape (0.1mil, or 2.5 microns thick), as seen on several higher-priced AT cartridges over the years, including the mid-2000's AT-150MLx (RIP), is much less prone to pinch distortion.

 

[jblnut]

Tracking ability plus reduced distortion = resolution. That's the bottom line for any cartridge and way more important that flat frequency response in my book. You can equalize out a peak or valley later, but you'll never replace the details you didn't get in the first place.

jblnut

 

[gadget73]

What they said, separation and tracking ability. Flat response is actually reasonably easy and can be fixed electronically if needed, its the mechanical aspect where you get into exotic cantilever materials and expensive arms and concerns with mass, compliance, and the resulting resonance those two form.

 

[illinoisteve]

As suggested, part of what you get to hear are products of what you feed the cartridge signal into, such as amplification and speakers. But if something like channel separation isn't coming out of the cartridge, it won't get through the rest of the system.

Besides the frequency response range, and flatness or faithfulness, there is also how detailed the sounds of the instruments and voices are. A lot of intricate detail is very nice, unless it sounds harsh somehow. Some cartridges that don't have maximum detail are still praised for being smooth. If the smoothness turns to muddiness, however, nobody much likes that. Things like detail or smoothness are also very much connected for many cartridges by which stylus you are using with them. Stylus choice can also affect frequency response, so, if you are reading reviews of a cartridge's frequency response, be sure that you are taking note of which stylus the reviewer says (or presumes you will understand) is on the cartridge for their tests.

The spacial presentation of the music is another issue. If you close your eyes, can you imagine where the various musical voices are on the imaginary stage in front of your ears? Whether this arrangement seems vivid can depend on a lot of things: how the record was recorded and mixed, the qualities of your system, and how your system is set up in your listening space all being important -- but the properties of the cartridge and the needle employed can also make a big difference.

.

 

[Pio1980]

Tracking and tracing ability are two different but imo important characteristics of a premium stylus.

 

[Blue Shadow]

The part that is missing is the sound quality of the cartridge system. The different parts all have something to do with it and remember that a cartridge is a transducer, converting movement to electrical energy, similarly a speaker is a transducer, converting electrical energy into movement. And look at all the ways speakers are designed to work providing different sounds.
Horns
cones
domes
planar magnetic
electrostatic
plasma
and others.

Cartridges, too, have different methods of doing the conversion and have different sounds because of it. Flat frequency response is only one criteria and many well liked cartridges don't even have that. The ATs are known for a nice peak in the top end.

So much more to cartridges the frequency response.

 

[Cosmo-D]

OK, I get that stereo separation is also important. With regards to tracing I find the conical stylus on DL-103 will trace just about anything without distortion on my linear arm. The only record I have gotten distortion due to the pinch effect was on an LP with over 25 minutes per side recorded on it.

 

[Cosmo-D]

As suggested, part of what you get to hear are products of what you feed the cartridge signal into, such as amplification and speakers. But if something like channel separation isn't coming out of the cartridge, it won't get through the rest of the system.

Besides the frequency response range, and flatness or faithfulness, there is also how detailed the sounds of the instruments and voices are. A lot of intricate detail is very nice, unless it sounds harsh somehow. Some cartridges that don't have maximum detail are still praised for being smooth. If the smoothness turns to muddiness, however, nobody much likes that. Things like detail or smoothness are also very much connected for many cartridges by which stylus you are using with them. Stylus choice can also affect frequency response, so, if you are reading reviews of a cartridge's frequency response, be sure that you are taking note of which stylus the reviewer says (or presumes you will understand) is on the cartridge for their tests.

The spacial presentation of the music is another issue. If you close your eyes, can you imagine where the various musical voices are on the imaginary stage in front of your ears? Whether this arrangement seems vivid can depend on a lot of things: how the record was recorded and mixed, the qualities of your system, and how your system is set up in your listening space all being important -- but the properties of the cartridge and the needle employed can also make a big difference.

.

I get what you are you are saying. Imaging definitely related to how the record was recorded (in fact in my experience that is the biggest factor) as well your setup at home. All the stuff you are describing would seem to be the product unequal frequency response. If you've ever played with an electric guitar or whatever the tonal aspects as to whether it sounds smooth or detailed can be radically altered by changing the EQ on the amp, the controls on the guitar, or by changing pickups. Guitar pickups obviously have the biggest effect. They completely change the sound because they all have different frequency response and output. For a guitar flat frequency response isn't considered useful because the goal is to create new sounds. For hi-fi the goal is ostensibly reproduction so I feel like flatness has its place.

 

[c_dk]

Just like for speaker systems few listeners find really flat frequency response to be accurate, or enjoyable......just say'in.....

 

[doctor fuse]

Lower inductance seems to be a quality of cartridges I like (most MCs, and Excel ES70EX4 MM quadraphonic). These seem to track better, in terms of surface noise and pops and clicks. Not sure of the science, just observing what I like and the common trait.

 

[Cosmo-D]

Lower inductance seems to be a quality of cartridges I like (most MCs, and Excel ES70EX4 MM quadraphonic). These seem to track better, in terms of surface noise and pops and clicks. Not sure of the science, just observing what I like and the common trait.

From what I have gathered the electrical qualities of cartridge do affect its frequency response. Not sure of the exact effect. Capacitance apparently has quite an effect on MM cartridges, so you're probably right about that.

 

[Cosmo-D]

Just like for speaker systems few listeners find really flat frequency response to be accurate, or enjoyable......just say'in.....

Do you mean it doesn't "sound" accurate? Because in terms of measurements it should be. Why exactly is that? I have DL-110 and it has a slight "hump" in the bass. It definitely makes the bass "punchier", but at the same time it kind of makes all bass sound the same. It took some time to adjust my ears to the flatter bass of the DL-103. The bass is still there. I guess some might find it "sterile", but I find it more natural and better integrated into the mix. I'll have to listen to something really bass heavy one of these days. Then again my speakers probably aren't that flat either.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Any cart will track a groove with enough VTF, and most all will provide a graph showing how flat of a response they have. But they need to respond to the most minute modulations in order for them to get all the finer details that a recording can offer. I like the micro line and the lighter more responsive cantilevers that are often found on the MC carts, and mostly those of the Low output types. I don't care for the conical profile stylus other than for my mono table for older records
.

 

[Cosmo-D]

Any cart will track a groove with enough VTF, and most all will provide a graph showing how flat of a response they have. But they need to respond to the most minute modulations in order for them to get all the finer details that a recording can offer. I like the micro line and the lighter more responsive cantilevers that are often found on the MC carts, and mostly those of the Low output types. I don't care for the conical profile stylus other than for my mono table for older records
.

I actually started a thread on effective tip mass: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ve-on-a-cartridge.819541/page-3#post-11541635 Still waiting on some measurments.

Are there actually modulations cut into a record that are so small that will not be picked up at reasonable with a heavy tip mass? A cartridge picks up the "whooshing" noise of unmodulated grooves at fairly high level (well not higher than the music). Subtle reverb, along with the decay of transients seem to come through just fine.

 

[c_dk]

I have a notebook around somewhere that has over 300 room/speaker voicing curves accumulated over 40 years in the audio business.

Don't have a clue how many turntables I have set over 4 decades but back in the day it would not be uncommon to do 3 or 4 a day. And to paraphrase a old Art Linkletter saying......"Customers listen to the darnedest things".

Trying to figure out why and how to keep them happy is a ongoing learning experience.

It was not uncommon to get with a high end cartridge back in the day a individual chart recorder frequency response curve with each cartridge.......and seldom would that Q/C graph correspond to what we would measure while calibrating the cartridge/table. There are so many variables involved in setup you can not just focus on one thing.

It just takes a lot of trial and error, hands on experience, and the scientific based curiosity to try to figure out why.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Physics says that the more mass the more energy it takes to move it, and once moving mass is more difficult to return to a stop. Considering that a stylus is constantly being made to reverse directions quickly, the lighter the cantilever and stylus along with a compliant suspension the more likely a cartridge is able to respond to the slightest of nuances, at least that is my opinion.