I have a horizontal bi amp situation and I want to be able to switch between a tube amp and a ss amp for the top end. I have a impedance matching two amp speaker switch, now this should be doable? Or is there something I'm missing?
Bi amping question
- Thread starter manu et deo
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onplane
What! No Wake???
Unless we know how your speaker switch is wired, it is hard to say whether this would yield decent results.
Don't forget you also must have the same source on both amps.
Your final problem is polarity/phase. You have a 50 - 50 chance that your amps are in phase. Now this is easy to remedy, but that switch might not allow.
Regards,
Jerry
Switch is OSD Audio DSM4 dual source 4 zone speaker switch
https://www.osdaudio.com/dsm4-dual-source-4-zone-speaker-selector-with-amplifier-protection.html
https://www.osdaudio.com/dsm4-dual-source-4-zone-speaker-selector-with-amplifier-protection.html
whoaru99
Epic Member
I can't tell enough by the information provided for the OSD switcher.
Personally, I'd use two DPDT switches (as shown) or one 4PDT switch in place of the two DPDT switches. Consider Amp 2 to be the tube amp, with 100 ohm resistors across each channel output for load (unloaded) protection.
Personally, I'd use two DPDT switches (as shown) or one 4PDT switch in place of the two DPDT switches. Consider Amp 2 to be the tube amp, with 100 ohm resistors across each channel output for load (unloaded) protection.
Do you mean with my other one for the lows? Thes two amps are just for mid and tweeter so I don't have to warm tubes for a short time
whoaru99
Epic Member
Just speculating but odds are the frequencies are divided with the crossovers that are built into the speakers. You know, remove the jumpers, feed signals separately to the low input and mid/high input.
Not much engineering required for that. It's usually right in the speaker manual if they are equipped with biwire/biamp terminals.
Not much engineering required for that. It's usually right in the speaker manual if they are equipped with biwire/biamp terminals.
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WaynerN
Addicted Member
No, I am not really talking about that. Many amplifiers have different levels of gain, in relationship to the volume control. With one amp, it doesn't matter, but with 2 or three amps in a bi-amp or triamp configuration, the tonal balance between the woofer, mid and tweeters will be screwed up. Many tube amps have a gain that can be as much as 10db lower then their solid state cousins, so that means one amp will be playing at one volume level, the other amp at another level, and the blend of the 2 will not mix correctly. The result (depending on the amps gain level) could result in a bass heavy, or high frequency heavy playback.
However, if your amps have volume controls, you can adjust for this, simply by adjusting the volume for each amp.
However, if your amps have volume controls, you can adjust for this, simply by adjusting the volume for each amp.
Yes, all three amps have gain controls
whoaru99
Epic Member
I understand you didn't ask/bring up the point about frequency division but someone else did.
WaynerN
Addicted Member
Good. You then should have any problems.
whoaru99
Epic Member
I understand that too but my remarks were to a specific but different point.
Guess we probably both should have quoted the specific direction of our replies.
still a problem. the log/gain on the output amps are not matched to each other except at one
point. say 5w hits the tube/treble that matches (sound level-wise) with the 10w to the ss/woofer
because the woofer is less sensitive and/or your music demands +10DB on the bass notes.
now switch speakers. 5w at the bass speaker, 10w at the treble speaker.
the crossover is designed to match treble and bass signals to output amps with dedicated
speakers to each. so one single volume control to two different amp/speaker combinations.
unless the speakers are identical, in which case it would be unnecessary to have
impedance matching or even a speaker switch, then the amp/speaker combinations
must yield one that is better than the others.
in fact, the crossover is the best way to test this. using a higher freq to send signals to the
bass side (low pass) to remove the effects of the bass. then listen to the treble only music side,
and compare the two speakers you might use for depth, height, width of the sound stage.
and clarity of the instruments. this applies heavily to classical music.
then use the others for bass. if and when you adjust the balance, turn off the treble and listen
to the bass. not much there - for classical music it adds warmth which was the point from the
70's to the late 90s when home theatre systems demanded you rattled teeth and glasses.
however, for rock its the opposite, do the top/down test and listen for the best combo of rock
bass. if the combo is not good enough for you - bi-amp is not the answer - CV D9s or JBL L100s
plus 1000wpc may do it.
I've been horizontal bi-amping for decades and have tested possible replacements. since I
listen to mostly symphonic classical, I have yet to replace the treble speaker. I use a pair
of Polk 7Bs for the bass and for the little bass-heavy rock I listen to, it suffices. However,
I have gone through dozens of amps for treble and bass. right now its a small cheap
EL34 SE tube amp for the treble and a modified Hafler 200 for the bass.
There's a rule covering programming and boutiqueing audio, one change at a time
and start from a firm foundation.
no matter what you do, tell us about what you found, and enjoy the music
point. say 5w hits the tube/treble that matches (sound level-wise) with the 10w to the ss/woofer
because the woofer is less sensitive and/or your music demands +10DB on the bass notes.
now switch speakers. 5w at the bass speaker, 10w at the treble speaker.
the crossover is designed to match treble and bass signals to output amps with dedicated
speakers to each. so one single volume control to two different amp/speaker combinations.
unless the speakers are identical, in which case it would be unnecessary to have
impedance matching or even a speaker switch, then the amp/speaker combinations
must yield one that is better than the others.
in fact, the crossover is the best way to test this. using a higher freq to send signals to the
bass side (low pass) to remove the effects of the bass. then listen to the treble only music side,
and compare the two speakers you might use for depth, height, width of the sound stage.
and clarity of the instruments. this applies heavily to classical music.
then use the others for bass. if and when you adjust the balance, turn off the treble and listen
to the bass. not much there - for classical music it adds warmth which was the point from the
70's to the late 90s when home theatre systems demanded you rattled teeth and glasses.
however, for rock its the opposite, do the top/down test and listen for the best combo of rock
bass. if the combo is not good enough for you - bi-amp is not the answer - CV D9s or JBL L100s
plus 1000wpc may do it.
I've been horizontal bi-amping for decades and have tested possible replacements. since I
listen to mostly symphonic classical, I have yet to replace the treble speaker. I use a pair
of Polk 7Bs for the bass and for the little bass-heavy rock I listen to, it suffices. However,
I have gone through dozens of amps for treble and bass. right now its a small cheap
EL34 SE tube amp for the treble and a modified Hafler 200 for the bass.
There's a rule covering programming and boutiqueing audio, one change at a time
and start from a firm foundation.
no matter what you do, tell us about what you found, and enjoy the music
triode17
Super Member
Simple solution, you would use a stereo 3-way, electronic crossover. They have individual vol. controls for each crossover output. This is an old concert sound procedure.
onplane
What! No Wake???
Well, I also have some concerns. When I look at the rear panel of your "impedance matching switch" I noticed that all of the speaker minus connections are grouped together.
You really need to test all of these minus connections to see whether they are wired together. My guess is the switch assumes all of the amp's are common ground. That is not a bad assumption for 99.9% of the home amplifiers.
But ... and a real big "but" is that many of those old tube amps are NOT common ground.
Hooking a non-common ground amp up to such a switch would NOT yield satisfactory results and could damage the amp.
Finally, as I mentioned earlier, you may have a polarity problem. If you do, again a switch with common grounds would NOT allow you to resolve this issue. You need a switch, that treats every input and output as an isolated lead. (See Whoaru99's circuit diagram for an example of completely isolated inputs and outputs.)
Regards,
Jerry
