Blew up my Project Tube Box DS

Mellotronix

Super Member
The latest victim of our extremely dry, cold, staticky weather conditions is my Tube Box DS that I've had for about two years. My new VPI Prime Scout sent a charge downstream tripping the power switch on the Tube Box and that was the end. It's under warranty so I'll send it in for service. My backup Schiit Mani died a few weeks ago, so what to do?

My main cart is a Grado Statement Master 2 (1.0 mV output) moving iron, so it needs 47kOhms load and at least 50 db of gain (60 is ideal) which is not as easy to find in a phono stage as you would think. The Tube Box was perfect.

For now, I'm going direct from my VPI into the MM phono stage of the Yamaha AS801 Integrated Amp. It serves up 100 watts of extremely clean power to my B&W 705 S2's and REL sub.

Overall, I'm extremely impressed with the capabilities of the Yamaha AS801, and in this faux emergency situation, it's really earning its stripes. Volume is about ½ way up and there is nary a hint of any background noise. It helps that the Grado Master 2 and the VPI Prime Scout are nearly invisible in the system.

In fact, the Yamaha intie has the lowest noise floor of any amp I've ever owned or operated. It's just dead quiet through the entire range of its volume. If you were sitting in my studio right now listening to Jethro Tull's "...Brick" on 180 gram vinyl through my system, you'd never know that I was using a low output MI cart through a phono stage designed for an Ortofon Red. That is, unless you are familiar with REL subs. You see, the only hint that my cart is slightly power starved is the tiny amount of "bloom" on bass notes below 100 Hz or so. Basically, it sounds more like a normal sub rather than a REL.

THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE HERE FOR AWHILE BUT I CHANGED MY MIND

Going with a Sutherland KC Vibe which is a good match for my Prime Scout. I'll let you know how everything goes. Should have it by the end of the week.

In the meantime, all hail the mighty YAMAHA AS801 and its ability to handle high volume levels with no noise. None. Seriously. Maybe in an anechoic controlled room. But it's freaky quiet, which I took for granted until today.

yam.jpg Sutherland_Engineering_KCVibe_View02.jpg
 
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Love Yamaha amps!!!! The Vintage ones are also great.

My A1-'s ( 4 of them) have a great MM and MC stage. Also very quiet .

Nashou
 
Love Yamaha amps!!!! The Vintage ones are also great.

My A1-'s ( 4 of them) have a great MM and MC stage. Also very quiet .

Nashou

Ditto! I had Kenwood tuners and integrated amps for years until the 90's when I switched to Sony when multichannel home theater was first taking off. The amount of hiss, especially in the surround channels (Dolby Pro Logic days...) was unacceptable. I quickly moved to Yamaha and I have not looked back since. I've owned a series of Aventage home theater receivers and they have always performed cleanly. I don't care much for their proprietary sound field stuff, but in pure direct mode, those receivers are quiet, clean and sound amazing.

So when I set up my small playback system in my mixing/mastering room, I went with the Yamaha Integrated Amp. It was fairly new and highly rated. I'm glad I did. May upgrade it soon to another Yamaha.
 
and where do you live?? I am very ignorant of ESD and how it can take down HIFI preamps. I live in the desert and I have never seen this.
 
20190217_222939.jpg I've seen your other thread...you are having a bad week.
I zapped a phono pre many years ago....OPAMP chips are very sensitive.
I have the nearly same cartridge (Statement Sonata 2) as you and found my Nirvana with an Audio Research PH3. It's a hybrid design...FET front end and three 6dj8's in the output stage. The workmanship is the finest I've seen.
Just the right amount of gain and it sounds "right", if you know what I mean.
I think I paid $700 a couple of years ago and am completely satisfied. So clear, so accurate, no hum, no hiss.....there's nothing bad I have to say except the best tubes for the PH3 aren't cheap, but they really stand out.
But to me...it's worth every penny.

Regarding ESD--The PH3 has rack mount handles. I've made it a habit to discharge static from myself into those handles prior to reaching for the tonearm.
 
I wanted to try an Audio Research Phono Stage for my Grado Statement Cartridge after seeing this photo "Inside Grado Labs". Notice the preamp's on the left?

Audio Research Corp Phono Stage and Line Stage. The phono stage on the bottom looks like my PH3.

I thought "if it's good enough for Mr. Grado, it's good enough for me."
I'm very satisfied.


DSC_3438.jpg .
 
View attachment 1423746 I've seen your other thread...you are having a bad week.
I zapped a phono pre many years ago....OPAMP chips are very sensitive.
I have the nearly same cartridge (Statement Sonata 2) as you and found my Nirvana with an Audio Research PH3. It's a hybrid design...FET front end and three 6dj8's in the output stage. The workmanship is the finest I've seen.
Just the right amount of gain and it sounds "right", if you know what I mean.
I think I paid $700 a couple of years ago and am completely satisfied. So clear, so accurate, no hum, no hiss.....there's nothing bad I have to say except the best tubes for the PH3 aren't cheap, but they really stand out.
But to me...it's worth every penny.

Regarding ESD--The PH3 has rack mount handles. I've made it a habit to discharge static from myself into those handles prior to reaching for the tonearm.

I wanted to try an Audio Research Phono Stage for my Grado Statement Cartridge after seeing this photo "Inside Grado Labs". Notice the preamp's on the left?

Audio Research Corp Phono Stage and Line Stage. The phono stage on the bottom looks like my PH3.

I thought "if it's good enough for Mr. Grado, it's good enough for me."
I'm very satisfied.
View attachment 1423783 .

Very helpful information everyone. I appreciate it very much. The ARC PH3 was one of my finalists, but I decided that the Sutherland KC Vibe would make a good choice. I still could change my mind and go with the ARC. We shall see.

and where do you live?? I am very ignorant of ESD and how it can take down HIFI preamps. I live in the desert and I have never seen this.

Static electricity can be extreme where I live in Colorado. The combination of high altitude, windy conditions, low relative humidity, cold air and furnaces running much of the day and night really gets things charged up. I've blown LCD monitors, guitar amps, a Schiit DAC, a Schiit Mani, a the motor on my Project Classic, a half dozen or more programmable thermostats for home AC/heating, a Cloud Lifter mic preamp, a Voodoo Labs Pedal Power 2 plus--pretty much any small device is at risk. They all make the same sickening pinkish noise when you go to use them (thermostat notwithstanding)
 
Wow. I live in very cold, dry winters and I wear slippers with rubber bottoms that generate bad static charge. On bad days it hurts to touch things in the house. My habit has become to discharge static directly onto the body of my phono pre before switching records. If the device is grounded I don't see how it can be fried doing same. Isn't that the point of grounding in the first place, to shunt charges through a path of least resistance into the ground of the home? So far, no issues doing it this way, or maybe I'm lucky so far.
 
Wow. I live in very cold, dry winters and I wear slippers with rubber bottoms that generate bad static charge. On bad days it hurts to touch things in the house. My habit has become to discharge static directly onto the body of my phono pre before switching records. If the device is grounded I don't see how it can be fried doing same. Isn't that the point of grounding in the first place, to shunt charges through a path of least resistance into the ground of the home? So far, no issues doing it this way, or maybe I'm lucky so far.

From the web:

Almost all semiconductors and low-voltage capacitors have a very thin layer that serves as a barrier or dielectric divider between two or more different elements or poles of the devices. This thin barrier is what defines the electrical characteristics of said device.

This thin barrier has a definite maximum voltage. A static charge can be thousands of volts and will easily breach this thin layer. The device will no longer be able to function as designed. It may work in some limited fashion but the damage is permanent and the device will need to be replaced. In some cases, the damaged device may cause a cascade of damage to other devices downstream due to excess current flow where it was not designed to flow.
 
Isn't that the point of grounding in the first place, to shunt charges through a path of least resistance into the ground of the home? So far, no issues doing it this way, or maybe I'm lucky so far.
You have been lucky...Mellotronix has not.
The term "ground" is confusing. There's earth ground, safety ground and reference ground.
Electronic circuits need a reference ground...something for the positive or negative supply rails to use as a reference. "+12 VDC" really means +12v above the reference ground (zero) as established by the component. This established zero point (reference ground) may or may not be connected to your house's ground (water pipe, ground rod). This "ground" would be "floating" on it's own because it's not connected to the house's ground.

Ground Loop hum occurs when the path to ground is different for two components. If there's a difference, there is the "potential" for current to run from one ground plane to another. That's why it's best to plug all of your components into the same outlet. Analogous to having an unlevel rain gutter. If it rains, water will flow to the low side. Moving water is a current. Electricity is like water...it flows from one potential to another. In electronics, the result is hum.

Semiconductor's are notoriously sensitive. Opamps have positive and negative voltage rails. These rails must be referenced to something called "Zero" or the ground plane. The ground plane may or may not have anything to do with the house's safety ground. In my system, I can discharge static from myself into a metallic component rack, into the phono pre's chassis and still get a mild shock from the chassis of my turntable . I have to touch 3 objects until I consider it safe to touch the headshell. Easy to learn...pain is great way to reinforce behavior.

Years ago I blew out a Grado PH1 phono preamp. The preamp retailed for $500 and the heart of the component...the opamp cost 55 cents to replace. That preamp had a wall wart and the plug from the wall wart to the preamp had 3 pins...+12vdc, -12vdc, and ground (zero). I touched the ground and "poof"...nothing but static.

A really good static discharge is like a mini lightening strike...anything can happen. It's not hard to imagine a powerful static discharge jumping from ground across the foil trace on a printed circuit board into a positive or negative voltage rail. The result..total destruction of a semiconductor.

I had a beauty of a shock last week when the temperature was just above zero. The arc was about 1 inch long from my finger to the headshell and it hurt.

Mellotronix has had a recent run of bad luck...I wouldn't lend him anything valuable for the time being.
 
OK, sure sure sure, but I am a 50+ year old man and as far as I can remember have NEVER lost an a piece of gear this way. How is it possible that millions and millions of us living in cold, harsh, dry winters aren't constantly frying our electronics and appliances this way? Something doesn't add up. I'm not doubting your apparent electrical knowledge, but your description of the seeming fragility of electronic components in no way jibes with my actual experience of living on this earth for this many years, nor of many others who I've never ever heard complain about static being so deleterious.



You have been lucky...Mellotronix has not.
The term "ground" is confusing. There's earth ground, safety ground and reference ground.
Electronic circuits need a reference ground...something for the positive or negative supply rails to use as a reference. "+12 VDC" really means +12v above the reference ground (zero) as established by the component. This established zero point (reference ground) may or may not be connected to your house's ground (water pipe, ground rod). This "ground" would be "floating" on it's own because it's not connected to the house's ground.

Ground Loop hum occurs when the path to ground is different for two components. If there's a difference, there is the "potential" for current to run from one ground plane to another. That's why it's best to plug all of your components into the same outlet. Analogous to having an unlevel rain gutter. If it rains, water will flow to the low side. Moving water is a current. Electricity is like water...it flows from one potential to another. In electronics, the result is hum.

Semiconductor's are notoriously sensitive. Opamps have positive and negative voltage rails. These rails must be referenced to something called "Zero" or the ground plane. The ground plane may or may not have anything to do with the house's safety ground. In my system, I can discharge static from myself into a metallic component rack, into the phono pre's chassis and still get a mild shock from the chassis of my turntable . I have to touch 3 objects until I consider it safe to touch the headshell. Easy to learn...pain is great way to reinforce behavior.

Years ago I blew out a Grado PH1 phono preamp. The preamp retailed for $500 and the heart of the component...the opamp cost 55 cents to replace. That preamp had a wall wart and the plug from the wall wart to the preamp had 3 pins...+12vdc, -12vdc, and ground (zero). I touched the ground and "poof"...nothing but static.

A really good static discharge is like a mini lightening strike...anything can happen. It's not hard to imagine a powerful static discharge jumping from ground across the foil trace on a printed circuit board into a positive or negative voltage rail. The result..total destruction of a semiconductor.

I had a beauty of a shock last week when the temperature was just above zero. The arc was about 1 inch long from my finger to the headshell and it hurt.

Mellotronix has had a recent run of bad luck...I wouldn't lend him anything valuable for the time being.
 
Nice to see the Yamaha AS801 is performing to your standards. My friends Yamaha AS500 sounds pretty darn good too. One reason I went with Yamaha's RX-A770 Dolby Atmos AV receiver. Even with the complexity of this 7.2 channel AVR the stereo sound doesn't seem to be comprised. I'm really impressed with Yamaha's new Integrated Amps, Receiver's (for us folks who still like FM) and AVR's. Would highly recommend them.
 
Mellotronix has had a recent run of bad luck...I wouldn't lend him anything valuable for the time being.

Excellent advice! The items that I listed went down over a number of years except for the recent Project Phono Pre and the Project Turntable.

OK, sure sure sure, but I am a 50+ year old man and as far as I can remember have NEVER lost an a piece of gear this way. How is it possible that millions and millions of us living in cold, harsh, dry winters aren't constantly frying our electronics and appliances this way? Something doesn't add up. I'm not doubting your apparent electrical knowledge, but your description of the seeming fragility of electronic components in no way jibes with my actual experience of living on this earth for this many years, nor of many others who I've never ever heard complain about static being so deleterious.

It could be something as simple (or complex, depending upon how you look at it) as the polyester in the carpet. We vacuum quite frequently which probably just charges it up even more.

Don't forget, I live at altitude. Here's an explanation from the web:

...water molecules "bleed off" static charge pretty quickly on a humid day. A similar effect is demonstrated spectacularly in our experiments with a Van de Graaff generator, where fruity pebbles take the place of water molecules in bleeding off some excess charge.

In the winter, and especially at high altitudes where the atmosphere is thinner, the dryness of the air keeps this bleed-off from happening, turning the air into an insulator and causing that excess charge to stay stuck to you until you give it a path to ground in the form of a conductive object.

From the Colorado Real Estate Group:
Feel static electricity! Since the air is so dry, chances are you’ll get shocked particularly after walking on carpet, but also getting in the car, kissing your loved ones.
 
Well I feel for you with that much equipment loss. I also should be thankful at my good fortune in this regard. In any event best of luck with the new pre.


Excellent advice! The items that I listed went down over a number of years except for the recent Project Phono Pre and the Project Turntable.



It could be something as simple (or complex, depending upon how you look at it) as the polyester in the carpet. We vacuum quite frequently which probably just charges it up even more.

Don't forget, I live at altitude. Here's an explanation from the web:

...water molecules "bleed off" static charge pretty quickly on a humid day. A similar effect is demonstrated spectacularly in our experiments with a Van de Graaff generator, where fruity pebbles take the place of water molecules in bleeding off some excess charge.

In the winter, and especially at high altitudes where the atmosphere is thinner, the dryness of the air keeps this bleed-off from happening, turning the air into an insulator and causing that excess charge to stay stuck to you until you give it a path to ground in the form of a conductive object.

From the Colorado Real Estate Group:
Feel static electricity! Since the air is so dry, chances are you’ll get shocked particularly after walking on carpet, but also getting in the car, kissing your loved ones.
 
When I work at my mixing desk, I bleed off the static charge when I touch the metal frame of my chair before sitting down. When I use my hi-fi gear, I always touch a metal floor standing lamp frame a few times before I handle my turntable or any of my other gear. It's not pleasant and the shocks can be pretty spectacular, but no biggie and you learn how to minimize the pop.

But, here's how I killed my Project Preamp as far as I can tell. When my new VPI arrived, it was statically charged to the extreme because the materials used in the plinth are very adept at holding a static charge, and static built up during the shipping process in the drafty FeEx truck. It was +8º F when it was delivered to my home and the table was very cold to the touch.

Even though I was not statically charged, the VPI was, big time, even several hours after it arrived. I should have taken action, but I underestimated how serious it was. When I reached for the tonearm, the static from the TT discharged through my body, but it also sent a charge downstream to the Project Preamp which resulted in a loud pop through my speakers and subwoofer. At that point, the damage to the preamp was done. Fortunately, it's under warranty.
 
OK, sure sure sure, but I am a 50+ year old man and as far as I can remember have NEVER lost an a piece of gear this way. How is it possible that millions and millions of us living in cold, harsh, dry winters aren't constantly frying our electronics and appliances this way? Something doesn't add up. I'm not doubting your apparent electrical knowledge, but your description of the seeming fragility of electronic components in no way jibes with my actual experience of living on this earth for this many years, nor of many others who I've never ever heard complain about static being so deleterious.
Well, I'm a little older than you and have witnessed firsthand semiconductor damage from ESD. Most recently three weeks ago to an alarm system. The damage was confined to a voltage regulator and microprocessor.

Every semiconductor I've purchased from Digikey or Mouser is packed in a ESD-proof bag.
Every hard drive I've purchased from Western Digital or Seagate is packaged in a ESD-proof bag. Same with video cards, memory...anything containing a solid state device.

Surely there must be something to this ESD phenomenon.

Coincidentally...every time I've experienced the phenomenon was during the winter months.

It doesn't happen often, but it can and does happen. All you have to do is ask a bench tech.

Maybe you'll be lucky enough to experience it for yourself someday. You'll be shocked!
 
Static electricity suspected in Colorado gas blast
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
March 4, 2014 at 5:48 am
SUBMIT YOUR NEWS TIPS OR PHOTOS

GREELEY, Colo.—Static electricity is suspected of sparking a massive explosion and fire at an oil and gas drilling site in northern Colorado that injured two workers.
The explosion Monday night north of Greeley shook houses and set a fire that could be seen for miles.
Firefighters were able to put out the blaze. Two workers suffered minor injuries.
The explosion happened as workers were pulling an oil and water mixture out of storage tanks to take to a separator.
Eaton Fire Capt. Michael Lenderink told The Tribune ( http://tinyurl.com/nfdhcpj) that firefighters believe static electricity might have arced and set off the vapors.
Liz Hergert says the explosion caused her whole house to shake.
———
Information from: The Tribune of Greeley, Co, http://greeleytribune.com
 
I've been doing a lot of reading on this topic over the last few days because it's obvious that I haven't been taking ESD seriously, and it has cost me hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in damages over the last few years. I also live in a high risk area. There is some good info on the web. I'd recommend this article from Electronics Notes.

Their conclusions in a nutshell:
ESD is a major concern for any company manufacturing electronic equipment. The damage caused by static discharges can cause a component to fail immediately and also it can cause latent failures to occur which can manifest themselves later, considerably reducing the overall reliability of the product.

With our electronic products made in factories all over the world, it's impossible to know to what extent the manufacturer has taken precautions to guard against ESD damage during manufacturing. A device may work fine but have ESD damage from the factory that shows up later when it fails unexpectedly.
 
I am at 5000 feet, cold and dry. Had all sorts of static problems until I got a humidifier. Best thing I ever did in that regard. ALOT less static strikes and less dust around the turntable. Dry sinus problems gone too.
 
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