Bottom to Tops in recievers / My Nineteen

kUngdrew

Leader of the dUng kRew..
Hey everyone, not new to Marantz but new to this site/group and wanted to share my thoughts and my story about my gear. About 8 years ago a friend of mine called me up to ask if i wanted some junk his dad had cleaned out of his garage and i said sure, when i got there, i saw that he was giving me an old reciever that was neat looking and heavy along with some other tools and things, i took everything in my car, said thanks and went home to figure out what to do ith everything. I waited a day or two to hook up the reciever, not knowing if the thing would even work and not very familiar with the Marantz name I unhooked my black plastic mid 90's Pioneer (100 watts a channel...yeah right) and set up to listen to the unkown 2215B. WOW! that's all I could say, this thing was smoking the pioneer in every way possible, and the sound was something I couldn't believe, music that I knew began to reveal things I had never heard before. I was hooked. After a little research on the net I found out this thing was only rated at 15 wpc, at that point i was really hooked. How could this be i kept thinking, all I had ever known or heard as a young man was the cheap stuff off the shelf, but this was something special.
After a few months with it I started trying to find a service tech to fix a pesky tape montor switch issue and one of the dial lights, i was lucky enough to find a gentleman with thirty plus years of working on these things and he had a 2270 that had been left in his shop for about ten years he said, someone didn;t want to pay to fix it and just gave it to him. I became close with this man and evetually talked him into bringing her back to life and selling me my second reciever. he also had a 4270 which we tried to get working but i passed on at the tme and somebody else has now, but the 2270 was an incredible sounding machine and served me well until i sold it to a responsible friend in 2005 as a christmas present to his father who was VERY happy about that let me tell you. in 2002 i bought a 2325 off of ebay and while it was loud as all get out and awesome sounding, it didn't have the warmth or organic qualities that the little 2215B or even the 2270 had and didn't see much use after the first few months until I recently sold it to a local hi-fi store who seemed really thrilled to take it off of my hands, maybe someone else needs bleeding ears besides me, haha. Not overly impressed but just my ear maybe and not meant to degrade any 2325 owners out there. all of this is leading up to my ultimate purchase (again my opinion) of a Model Nineteen in the spring of 2003. To date this is the finest sounding piece of audio equipment i have ever heard. It is so easy to listen to music on this thing i find myself trying unfamiliar styles and artists just to see what it can;t do and there seems to be nothing that sounds bad on this thing. It is the one i have and will keep as long as I live, some other deals have come along on higher rated units and diffent manufacturers but nothing i have heard comes close to the pure music that comes out of it. I don;t even have that great of speakers hooked up to it, I plan on saving for some heritage Klipsch's but the money aint coming in like it used to so the Sansui SPX-8000's I am using will have to keep plugging away for now. They are actually pretty efficient (98db) and match up really nicely to the power and range of the 19, actually the 19 could probably make a shoebox with aluminum foil stretched over it sound good, but anyway, I don't see many other writings or reviews of this model, is it that there just aren't too many of them around or do people only prefer the higher powered maodels, either way, as I mature and refine my music listening, I rank the 19 at the very top of the Marantz pieces I have heard, auditioned and or owned. Any one else agree? Thanks for reading this and maybe responding. kUngdrew





currently owned:
Marantz 19
Marantz 1200B
Marantz 2215B
Dual 1249 table
Dual 1218 table ( my tech is a wiz with these crazy engineered things)
Marantz 5420 (2)
Marantz 5400
Sony TC-366 and 355 reel to reel decks
Sony minidisk component deck and a portable mini diskman
RCA dual tray burner
DBX 128 compressor
pioneer cs-77 speakers
Sansui SPX-8000 speakers
previously owned:
Marantz 2270
Marantz 2325
Sansui BA-2000 and CA-2000
Sansui 7700 tuner
and...
Lots of over rated junk I had as a kid and thought sounded good before I knew what Music was supposed to sound like.
 
Hello and welcome KUngdrew,

You are preaching to the choir. We all love our vintage gear. Looks like you have a very nice collection.
 
Welcome to AK KUngdrew,

I also have a 2215B that I love. Just got it a couple of months ago and have it hooked up to some Paradigm Titans. Sounds great with my new Yamaha TT. I don't think you will find too many people disagreeing with you about the 2270 or the 2215B. As for the Model 19 I haven't had the pleasure of hearing one, but I am sure it sounds really nice. If you stick around for a while you might scores some speakers to match up for a pretty cheap price. Always watch the business and classified ads, you never know what will pop up. Welcome again, and I look forward to seeing your around the Marantz Forum.
 
Thanks for the great welcome!!!!!

thanks again guys for welcoming me to the forum, I got pretty frustrated in the past about not finding a whole lot on the net about vintage Marantz, this looks like it could be fun to have a place to discuss this type of thing, yes still looking for the better speakers but not for a little while until I get ahead financially, really want a pair of Cornwalls, heard them played with several modestly rated Marantz's in a friends collection and was floored at the sound. Good things come to those who have the patience to wait it out i hope, see ya around guys, kUngdrew
 
Welcome to the site and congrats on finding 1 of the nicest receivers out there. Is it the Custom Calibrated version with the drilled dial glass and "Custom Calibrated" plate on the faceplate or does it say 50 rms 50. Also was it assembled in Japan. There are both US and Japanese assembled units and Custom Calibrated and non-Custom Calibrated versions of each. The unit is based on the 20b tuner, the 33 preamp and the 16 power amp. The 18 that preceeded it wast based on the 20 tuner, the 7t premp and the 15 amp.

Over my lifespan I had pass through my hands about a dozen 19s with the last 1 going to my brother with a set of Wharfedale W70Ds that between use was used for about 20 years. The 18 and 19 are about as good as it gets in receivers bar none. In their day they had all the horsepower necessary to do the job well. I used 50 watts per channel in my main system for some 30 years.

You have a major problem though - were do you go from here in feeding your habit? Separates is the way, my son.
 
I am useing a mod 19 right now....the amp section is based on the mod 16 amp but only 50 watts ...I find it to be a bit wooly on the bottom end.. damping factor being a bit low.... As far as it having a mod 33 preamp circiut thats stretching it... the tone controlls on the 19 (Baxindall design) hinge too close to midrange area coloring the sound,, that i dont like. Although the upper frequencies are silky & sweet the bottom end is suspect to over emphasis. the tuner section is based on the mod 20 fm tuner...a very nice tuner,,but is hindered by the lackluster design of the rest of the reciever. Imaging of the reciever is bettered by useing seperate components of today or even back in the 1970 when the 19 came out...I hate to sound like a crumungen...But Marantz did better this design (recievers) later on.. THe Marantz Esotec line as seaprets (circuit design) shows better evolution of amp design...I am evaluating mod 19 and Esotec units now...triamping Esotec mod 5 amps (6 monoblocks) to a modified Klipsch bass bin, Large Bob Smith mid horns & JBL 2441 drivers plus JBL 2404 tweets useing Pioneer D23 electronic xover....Not taking away the Marantz 19 good qualitys i wouldnt kick it out of the bed the top end is very seductive,,, but the Marantz 2500 reciever betters it (20 years later)...
 
As Brian said, a properly adjusted Model Nineteen is about as good as it gets receiver wise. They sound exceptionally good with JBL L100's.
 
Some points to ponder. Based on is not the same as it is. I.E. the preamp section of the 19 is based on the 33 but is not the 33. Also, 1 has to remeber that a receiver is a compromise at best when compared to separates or even an integrated amp and tuner. The areas usually include the power supply and inputs. No, a 19 would not be as good as a 20b/33/16 combination and neither is the 18 as good as the 20/7t/15 combination though, I think the 18 comes closer soundwise than the 19 does with each receiver's derived from separates.

When in production, you only needed to compare the 19 with the individual components to hear the difference. But, compare the 19 to what else was available not much availabel came close to it. I never compared the Sony STR6120 to it nor the STR6060FW. The 6060FW was compared to the 1700 and was equally as good sounding and the 18 had a more typical SS sound than the 1700 so there was a split as to which was better. IMHO, the 18 is bettter than the 19 but the 19 corrected the tendency of the 18 power amp to self-destruct and the extra 15 watts allowed it to be used with a much greater variety of speakers, all the way though the Concert Grand. Neither were good into 4 ohms.

In my listening, the 18 and 19s were new or near new. With aging I think the units are too variable today as with all units that 1 can not probably make a general statement as to a unit unless it was determined that the unit was brought back into original spec.

To give an an example of this; I love the Sony STR6060FW. May not be the "best" receiver based on objective criteria but, for listeing LONG hours, it is wonderful. Very similar to a Mc 1700. I just got in a Sherwood ss tuner and amp and against the Sony, and with need to still burn in the new caps, they will come close to or better the Sony in this test on my Wharfedales. However, in doing the repairs on the Sherwood the tech upped the PS cxaps and hence, the evaluation only relates to my set and can not be applied universally to all Sherwood S3000/S9500c combinations.

When comparing the 19 to a 2270, again when both were in production, the 19 the 2270 had more power but in long period listening the 2270s weaknesses in fine detail and finess was easily shown and the 19 walked away the winner. We had to do this comparison when persons would come in and think about the extra 20 watts of the 2270 and the extra $700 more or less of the 19. What they walked out with depended on how much they valued the better sound of the 19. Also, when we got them to the 19 price range for many is was an easier sell up to the Marantz separates as the increase in performance (as well as power) was easier to value at the $600 or so difference.
 
Yes age makes a difference...But the amp section of the 19 is designed to compensate for age...I wish i could do that for myself...Thats why i also introduced the mod 2500 into the equasion....New thoughts on circuit topoligy have improved things in recievers...since the mod 19. It is now long on the tooth. But i also had the 33, 16. and am fam...with the sound and design ..But the preamp section in the 19 isnt even close to the 33 that is a marketing stretch.
 
I think the 18 and 19 were 2 of the best receivers ever made. I'd give the nod to the 19 because it is happier with a wider selection of speakers. Everyone has their own criteria for judging receivers, but I think FM quality has to be in there. It's a receiver, if you don't care about FM, you get an Integrated. As Brian noted, the 18 & 19 have the 20 & 20b tuners in them that many consider 2 of the best SS tuners ever. Mac made some nice receivers in those days but none of them had a 77,78 or 80 tuner in them. I wonder what a 2505/28/77 or 2125/32/78 based receiver would have been like, let alone sold for. For some, FM isn't that important but they still want it in the covenient 3 in 1 package so we have the many others to choose from and rate accordingly.

As for the reason you don't see many 19's around, one reason has to be that they came out in the beginning of the 70's at $1000 and soon after went for 1200. That was quite a bit back then and at that price it's a pretty thin line financially to jump to separates. I'm enjoying mine!
 
Funny but, when the 2500 came out we were using a 19 as a standard to measure other receivers against. We pulled the 19 and subbed the 2500 as the standard without doing any long term comparisons. The 1st 2 2500s sold were to owners of 19s and within weeks both reported back they preferred the 19s. I scratched my head and pulled the display 19 which I had bought for myself after pulling and set it up to do a shootout for a few days. Speakers from memory included a set of AR3as and JansZen Z824HPs as well as a range of others. As with other shootouts we had 2 ways, I general public and a 2nd that was a closed store by invite day long listening, pizza and beer session. Invitees ranged from classical musicians to music majors to engineers and others. We wanted a broad background range but persons who knew what live music sounded like and experienced it very often.

The result was the general public liked the 2500 better almost universally. Of course a common charactiristic of those filling out the forms was noted as also those who tended to drive the 19 into clipping.

The results of the closed session were about 2 to 1 in favor of the 19. The general feeling was the balance between detail and orchestra integration was better balanced. The depth of instruments and individual instrument level in relation to the who was more precise.

I did not participate in the invitation only sessions but knew and respected more than half the participants.

I did take the 19 and 2500 home to throw the 2500 1st against my Marantz 9/7c/10b system and then the Mc 77/28/250 system. Home speakers were KLH Nines, Warfedale W70Ds and JansZen Z824HPs. Neither receiver could come near handling the load of the KLH Nine. The 2500 got no further than the 19 before shutting down. Neither bettered either separates system but the 19 came closer to the Marantz separates than the 2500 and the Mc sounded so different, I took it out of the equation except when tuner testing the receivers. My listening and conclusions occurred before reading the results of the other testing and mirrored the majority of the invitee closed session. I tested the tuner sections from the tape outputs into the Marantz and Mc separates and the 19 easily showed that somehow Marantz lost the knack of building great tuners after the 20b circuits. The 2500 tuner was good but not in the same league. The 19 was a US assembled Custom Calibrated and ultimately I gave it and the Wharfedales to my brother who used them as a pair for about 15 years.

Looking under the hood of both receivers, each shows why at some point going with separate amps and tuners makes sense. neither is a repair persons dream but, the 2500 is a nightmare.

If FM is not a primary source my suggestion go with an integrated amp and separate tuner that balances with your tuner needs.
 
wow guys, thanks for the great responces and views concerning the 19. I guess i could improve on the sound overall by choosing seperates but to get the same tuner i would have to spend as much for that one item as i did for the whole receiver, and then probably twice again as much for a pre and an amp, just not in cards for me now or anytime in the near future, I was lucky enough to find my 19 three months before my life changed due to heart disease, since then I have bought nothing and soldmost of what i had, I suppose i would say that I am happy with what I have and its performance has been flawless, and I couldn't possibly justify replacing it for a difference in sound that my ears probably couldn't recognize, plus its rarity makes it even more special to me because i know that comparedto the numbers of other Marantz models that were produced and sold back then mine is likely the only one around for many miles. I just don;t have the resources available to me that I used to and colecting these Marantzes is better left to those who can afford it better, just think of it this way, I won;t be giving you guys any competition for the pieces that pop up for sale anytime in the near future, lol you guys have come through with some great responces though. thanks for all of them so far. kUngdrew
 
wow guys, thanks for the great responces and views concerning the 19. I guess i could improve on the sound overall by choosing seperates but to get the same tuner i would have to spend as much for that one item as i did for the whole receiver, and then probably twice again as much for a pre and an amp, just not in cards for me now or anytime in the near future, I was lucky enough to find my 19 three months before my life changed due to heart disease, since then I have bought nothing and soldmost of what i had, I suppose i would say that I am happy with what I have and its performance has been flawless, and I couldn't possibly justify replacing it for a difference in sound that my ears probably couldn't recognize, plus its rarity makes it even more special to me because i know that comparedto the numbers of other Marantz models that were produced and sold back then mine is likely the only one around for many miles. I just don;t have the resources available to me that I used to and colecting these Marantzes is better left to those who can afford it better, just think of it this way, I won;t be giving you guys any competition for the pieces that pop up for sale anytime in the near future, lol you guys have come through with some great responces though. thanks for all of them so far. kUngdrew

That was a nice thank you and hopefuly with the advancements in treating heart disease, you will be with us for long time. One more suggestion, think about turning the scope off if you're going to have the 19 on for long periods of time. I use mine for the tuning and like to watch it dance to the music, the rest of the time I turn if off. The scopes are hard to find and getting expensive. Enjoy.
 
Two things. 1) Levels of satisfaction depends on the total system synergy. You can find as much satisfaction in a $299 system as a $1,000,000 system if the synergy in the more expensive system is not as good as the less expensive system. 2) You hit the nail on the head as to levels of hearing. Many do not hear the difference be tween unit x costing A and unit y costing 2A. I used to say when you hit that point do not spend more. Take the difference and by vinyl, CDs, whatever.

The 19 is a special receiver and an excellent system can be built around it. Back in '71-71 persons would give their eye teeth for a chance at 1 of these. These are not Pioneer SX 828s, Sansuis 881, etc. but the cream of the cream; the Rolls Royce of receivers, the top of the top of the line. To get better you need to move to separates. I am moving from separates down as I am not hearing as well as I did 30 years ago and am trying to find the magic in a smaller system. A Sony STR6060FW that competed against the Mc 1700 back in those days is moving me away from my Mc system. For me, the newly received and serviced Sherwood integrated amp and tuner may be my most satisfying compromise.
 
Andrew,
I used to own a Marantz 19. I always enjoyed it's sound, appearance and spectacular tuner. I traded it to a friend for some other gear and it found it's way into others' hands and is gone for good. I hope to someday find another. Let me give you some advice: never, ever sell it; you may regret it later and they are so rare you may never find another working one. Now the price is so high I doubt I will ever be able to buy one outright.
Sorry to hear about your illness, hopefully with proper treatment, diet and prescribed exercise you will regain your health.
 
Welcome Kungdrew....

From your equipment list the one thing that stands out that needs replacing first would be the speakers.
My 2325 is hooked up to some late 70's Mordaunt Short Carnival speakers...bookshelf ones that I picked up for $10.00 at a local Salvation Army. Sounds good...but I know the 2325 is crying out for something a little more worthy. I think the 19 can await an upgrade for many years yet!!
 
Thank you all for the kind words and thinking about my health, that means a lot. I am actually a pup compared to some of you and my age belies my medical history in that i was 30 when I first had a heart attack, for those of you familiar with heart disease, it left me with an ejection fraction in the mid forties, (normal is supposed to be around seventy, give or take) after getting two cardiac stents i re-occluded read:re-clogged one of them and suffered a second more devastating heart attack fourteen months later leaving me with an ef of less than twenty. I have a great doctor and because of my good physical shape and age, I am able to do more than you might expect, but not for very long before I get fatigued and need to rest and catch my breath, i am now 34, I know you might be thinking that 1: too young for heart problems, and 2: too young to be heavy into vintage audio. Well apparently not LOL True i grew up with black plastic crap and had no idea what music should sound like, but I consider myself one of the lucky ones to have been awakened, you know most of the general public seems satisfied with what the big box stores TELL them sounds good,andis good quality, HA!!! to that! As far as the scope thing on my Nineteen goes, yes, I am very stingy with the scope, the one that was in it worked but was a little dim so a few years back i bought one off of the guy on the auction site for $180.00 and had my tech put the new one in and I saved the old one too so my kids will have a spare someday, little did I know what a deal I got on the scope at the time, I looked the other week and the same guy is charging almost 400 bones for the same thing, but I only used it to tune and rarely show it off in audio mode to prolong its life and keep it that real pretty dark green. Don;t plan on selling it ever, the wife and kids know exactly what it is so they won;t either in case something happens to me, but my brother is sweating it BAD, he has some of my old sansui gear and he knows the difference in the sound between the two. I was only able to obtain copies of the sales and owners manuals but that should suffice for my son or daughter to learn it if it goes into storage for any time and they get it after they are grown up. yeah, i know the speakers need upgraded, and that is one of my ambitions. I am sure that there are some great deals on speakers but I cant audition/trial period speakers like it used to so my mind is kinda set on the Cornwalls I heard once. I know those things will beat me up if I want them to. any way, thanks for all the suggestions and comments, my health is steady for now and you're right about proper medicine and exercise and taking good care of what heart I have left, oh yeah and a little praying thrown in too, I hope to last a while before i need an overhaul, someday probably but not just yet,
oh yeah, actually have a tuner story with my 19/20B tuner, when I first got it I hooked it up and was messing around with it hooked up to nothing but a folded dipole ribbon antenna from a box of discards i got from my friend who worked at radioshed, and I picked up a three minute DX fade in and out but still pretty clear signal from a station in knoxville TN, couldn;t believe it, thats almost 300 miles with a mountain range in between us, I live in cincinnati, just though you might find that interesting, probably oughta hook up my big TV antenna to her and see what else she will do, maybe I will get my neighbor to help me, anyway, take care guys, see you soon, kUngdrew
 
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