Break-In Necessary on New CD Player?

[DaveVoorhis]

Are you really of the belief that simplistic measurements even begin to convey all that we are able to perceive? How do you measure the ability to deliver image depth?

"Image depth" is not a capacitor parameter, nor is it delivered by a capacitor on its own. It is a property of an amplifier circuit or audio transducer.

I see. Those who have no practical experience with the design and execution of amplifiers and audible effects of using such.

Amplifiers and filters (as used in crossovers in speakers) are developed by people who know electronics, i.e., electronic engineers.

I'll use the same sophomoric argument that they don't want to divulge what happens in the real world.

I see you have no examples in the audio world to share. No surprise at all.

This part of your argument appears to be partly irrelevant, mainly ad hominem, and entirely lacking in evidence for your point of view.

 

[restorer-john]

How little you understand them...

Them? Re-read my posts. I love AR gear. It's amazing. Probably some of the best gear out there.

'Burn in' in CD players, amplifiers and amplifiers is however utter BS. Provide some actual evidence that it is not BS and I will be beyond impressed.

 

[E-Stat]

Them? Re-read my posts. I love AR gear. It's amazing. Probably some of the best gear out there.

'Burn in' in CD players, amplifiers and amplifiers is however utter BS. Provide some actual evidence that it is not BS and I will be beyond impressed.

Perhaps you might review my first post #59 where I specifically addressed the question of capacitors. Indeed most SS gear today doesn't require caps in the signal path so I would agree except for the "amplifiers and amplifiers" part when such are used.

Actual evidence is implicit with their component choices, recommendations based upon extensive use of said (since 2001 or so) and the results.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

That necessarily assumes that base metrics such as resistance vs temperature or capacitance variation quantify all there is involved with the audible results in actual circuits.

If you are aware of additional parameters of a capacitor beyond its fundamental electrical parameters -- capacity, inductance, and resistance -- and their variation in response to temperature, frequency and voltage, then please publish a paper. The fields of electronics and physics need to see this!

 

[E-Stat]

"Image depth" is not a capacitor parameter, nor is it delivered by a capacitor on its own. It is a property of an amplifier circuit or audio transducer.

Yes.

"Amplifiers and filters (as used in crossovers in speakers) are developed by people who know electronics, i.e., electronic engineers.

Like all professions, some are good and others are quite poor. The results differentiate which of those really understand their craft vs those who just look at numbers and proclaim perfection!

"This part of your argument appears to be partly irrelevant, mainly ad hominem, and entirely lacking in evidence for your point of view.

It is evident we have very different points of reference when it comes to the reproduction of music. It is understandable why you never speak of yours.

 

[E-Stat]

If you are aware of additional parameters of a capacitor beyond its fundamental electrical parameters -- capacity, inductance, and resistance -- and their variation in response to temperature, frequency and voltage, then please publish a paper. The fields of electronics and physics need to see this!

Such simplistic thinking parallels those who measure cable metrics in a vacuum - connected to nothing - and expect to understand its interaction with all the other parts of the circuit.

Don't tell me, don't tell me - you find that op amp based line circuits are "essentially transparent", right? Some of us here actually listen to our gear and use that as the arbiter of what is most successful at reproducing live, unamplified music.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

It is evident we have very different points of reference when it comes to the reproduction of music. It is understandable why you never speak of yours.

Again, you appear not to be providing evidence of teflon capacitor burn-in -- except for indirect reference to the claims of sellers of the teflon-based products -- and making irrelevant ad hominems like invoking my wholly-irrelevant "points of reference", and now this:

Don't tell me, don't tell me - you find that op amp based line circuits are "essentially transparent", right?

What does that have to do with teflon capacitors?

 

[restorer-john]

...Don't tell me, don't tell me - you find that op amp based line circuits are "essentially transparent", right?...

This thread on 'burn-in' is entertaining, but it is showing signs of being derailed...

The 'teflon' effect seems to have gathered a bit of traction it would seem. 'If' it is true and 'if' you can hear effects after X number of hours- why then does a company that uses 'teflon' dielectrics in coupling capacitors not 'pre-burn-in' the completed products to ensure their customers get the best experience out of the box? After all, the soak testing done by all decent manufacturers is often conducted over multiple days, 24/7. Surely all the supposed 'burn-in' of such components would have already been completed?

Just askin.

 

[E-Stat]

What does that have to do with teflon capacitors?

Forget it. Apparently music reproduction is not something that is important to you.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Forget it. Apparently music reproduction is not something that is important to you.

It's very important to me. What do "op amp based line circuits" have to do with teflon caps?

 

[E-Stat]

why then does a company that uses 'teflon' dielectrics in coupling capacitors not 'pre-burn-in' the completed products to ensure their customers get the best experience out of the box?

Very simple answer: cost.

Most importantly, it's really not a big deal for customers to use their gear for a while before hearing the best results. 300 hours doesn't take a lot of time for those who listen to music daily.

 

[E-Stat]

It's very important to me. What do "op amp based line circuits" have to do with teflon caps?

Ability to here the full resolution of what's truly found in the best recordings. Acceptance of far less capability than what is available today.

It all depends upon one's point of reference. It's a shame most folks have little exposure to how realistic an audio system can be.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Very simple answer: cost.

Construction costs would be negligible, and running costs next to nothing, to build and run a jig for subjecting new capacitors to reasonable "burn in" conditions. The sales gain in being able to proudly boast caps that deliver peak performance from the start would surely pay for building and running the "burn in" jig and still bring in greater profit.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Ability to here the full resolution of what's truly found in the best recordings. Acceptance of far less capability than what is available today.

It all depends upon one's point of reference.

The discussion was about evidence for "burn in" in teflon caps. This appears to be off-topic.

 

[E-Stat]

Construction costs would be negligible, and running costs next to nothing, to build and run a jig for subjecting new capacitors to reasonable "burn in" conditions. The sales gain in being able to proudly boast caps that deliver peak performance from the start would surely pay for building and running the "burn in" jig and still bring in greater profit.

Isn't it wonderful that anonymous amateurs on the internet know far more than companies who have been in the business for over forty years?

What they could learn from such armchair experts who have never manufactured an audio product themselves.

 

[E-Stat]

The discussion was about evidence for "burn in" in teflon caps. This appears to be off-topic.

Apparently you've already forgotten your comments to which I replied. To jog your memory of merely a half an hour ago, here is my response and your reply:

E: Forget it. Apparently music reproduction is not something that is important to you.
D: It's very important to me.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Apparently you've already forgotten your comments to which I replied. To jog your memory of merely a half an hour ago, here is my response and your reply:

E: Forget it. Apparently music reproduction is not something that is important to you.
D: It's very important to me.

Again, what does this have to do with burn-in of teflon caps?

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Isn't it wonderful that anonymous amateurs on the internet know far more than companies who have been in the business for over forty years?

What they could learn from such armchair experts who have never manufactured an audio product themselves.

This seems to be deflecting from the essential point, which is that the evidence actually points to teflon cap "burn in" being an effective sales strategy rather than a physical reality.

 

[E-Stat]

This seems to be deflecting from the essential point, which is that the evidence actually points to teflon cap "burn in" being an effective sales strategy rather than a physical reality.

You either hear what those companies who have decades of experience using those components or you don't

 

[E-Stat]

Again, what does this have to do with burn-in of teflon caps?

Sorry. I thought answering your question would be a good thing. My mistake.