Bucket Sub Revisited

[Tube Radio]

This guy built it,, and measured it. As you can see output is pretty much too far down by 40Hz

Peerless 5 gallon bucket sub vs Dayton Sub-1200 https://imgur.com/EMoMpFx

Same guy tried sealed and ported

Peerless 5 gallon bucket sub: Sealed vs Ported https://imgur.com/RbUjxcn

Unless he built it 100% just like the instructions said including using the exact same class of amp including the same crossover frequency, the results WILL NOT be good.

By porting it he did not build it 100% like the instructions and there's no telling what else he did differently.



I run two in a smaller system crossed over at 70Hz.

One is in each front corner of the room.

The bass is very good and can be heard down to 32Hz.

Now can it get down to 25Hz essentially flat?

Obviously the one who measured it got it that low.

https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html

https://tubehifi.websitetoolbox.com/post/subwoofer-project-6426090?highlight=bucket+sub

Given who designed it I would tend to not doubt them.

That said room placement is key.

In my old trailer with paneling on the walls I could run one and it was fine

In my new trailer with drywall one was not enough and I had to use two.

I plan to eventually add two more as that will make the bass even better.

 

[Poultrygeist]

As Ed says "deviation from the original design means it's something else".

I'm a friend of Ed who is a master audio designer and builder who came up with the bucket sub. He's forgotten more about speakers than I will ever know.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Nothing in this photograph is my design. I could never come up with a speaker on my own that sounded good but what I can do is copy and build those designs that have proven to work well for others. That's what I did with the bucket subs which have been praised by hundreds of folks who took the time to build them rather than to dissect them.

Not counting the time it takes for the concrete to harden you could build them in an hour.

 

[Tube Radio]

Lowering the volume will make performance even worst. The fact I didn't account for the concrete, and it's still so far off from claimed performance should be telling. Adding a port will lower the F3 at the expense of making it fall off significantly steeper below that. But again, adding the port could not get F3 anywhere near claimed performance. Stuffing up to a certain point will also lower F3, again, even with that it doesn't come close.Basically everything that can be done to lower F3 has been done, and it doesn't get anywhere close to claimed. The claimed performance would be breaking every law of physics involved if it were true. The designer hasn't released any measurement data, so what we do have is definitely claimed performance. Which no simulation seems to be able to support ANY of it.

The only way I see this design being able to reach a 25Hz F3 or even a 25Hz F6, is with EQ and massive amplification. Which the chosen woofer just doesn't have the Xmax to support. This is the equivalent of an engine designer claiming they've designed a 1liter engine that can make 300hp without boost, and get 50mpg.

Again, look at what the woofer manufacturer and retailer is claiming the performance should be. If it were much better, why wouldn't they list it and try to sell more?

Again if the sub is not built EXACTLY as the instructions say, performance WILL NOT be as the designer says.


If the bucket sub was so bad, then why is it so talked about on many forums and being built by many people and used as subs with excellent results?

Both the bolded terms implies EQ+massive amplification. But there's no mention of using either. I just simulated it in winisd, this design will need 12db boost (at 30Hz) to hit a F6 of 25Hz. Which means it'll need 16x amplification requirements, but then it'll exceed cone excursion limits at only 6w. Unless I'm missing something, this design can't come close to claimed performance in ANY way according to established math.

What you're missing is that a well respected speaker designer designed the bucket sub and put his reputation on the line when he published the info for it so you best better bet it is a solid design.

Does Winisd have a setting for round buckets?

Believe me when I say I was a bit skeptical until I built one and heard it for the first time.

Now all I want is bucket subs except in my largest system where I plan on adding a 15" sun crossed over at 40Hz.

If you lived near me I'd have you come listen to my system with the bucket subs, although I wouldn't tell you which system it was that has them until you hear said system and the quality bass it produces.

 

[Tube Radio]

So what you're telling me is that the one who built it wrong then measured it

And

You who ran the numbers

Both know more about speaker building than the expert speaker designer?

You didn't answer my question about winisd whether or not it has a setting for bucket.

 

[Poultrygeist]

The measurements of the bucket sub were not done by it's inventor but by Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound. Bruce has the Grounded Grid and a host of OTL amps to his credit so I trust his measurements as posted on his site vs any armchair critic. But we know it's never about measurements it's about the sound and the buckets rock.

 

[Tube Radio]

I'm saying the science and the math doesn't back up the performance claims. I'm saying the closest thing to actual measurements for this design conform to theoretical simulations quite closely.

Of course it won't because winisd doesn't allow one to put the dimensions as a round enclosure.

Because if you look at the modeled frequency response. This design's performance isn't better than your typical budget sub in the same price range.

Except it is a good bit better than a budget sub in the same price range.

I'm asking if anyone has tried to confirm the performance claims. Because they're too far off from theoretical modeling.

Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound confirmed the claims.

Real time analysis in a typical live listening room shows the Bucket Sub to be essentially flat from 25 Hz to 100Hz.

Well there you have it. If your room isn't the typical live listening room you won't get the listed response.

Case in point. Where I used to live, my room had thin paneling for the walls and one sub was more than good enough. The room in my new place has drywall and it took two subs to do what one could do in the old place.

One cannot take any speaker and sub, set it up however, power it with whatever and expect it to sound great.

One has to use the right amp and proper speaker placement and in some cases go so far as adding bass traps and other room treatments.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Dave never built a pair. He generally doesn't like anything I like except for the Frugal Horns which gives him some income.

 

[Tube Radio]

The only measurements available, and the simulated performance show this design delivers audible response down to around 40Hz. Just about any budget subwoofer can do that. Yes I'll admit for music only use, that's perfectly adequate. But it doesn't come close to meeting the claim "essentially flat between 25Hz to 100Hz".

So someone builds it wrong then takes measurements and you consider those measurements correct?

I would love it if someone could prove me wrong, and show that it actually does dig below 30Hz.

As I said earlier Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound confirmed the claims.

All you have to do is follow the link I gave and contact him.

 

[Mike Stehr]

A drinking buddy took a pair of 12" 4 ohm sloppy car subs and taped them to the tops of 5 gallon buckets, and then jammed them in the cubby area behind the seat of his El Camino.
Ghetto, but better than free-air...

 

[Tube Radio]

Except the measurements you saw other than your own were on one that wasn't built 100% exactly per the instructions.

The outside baffle raises the driver up by the thickness of the wood which increases the internal space slightly and it is no longer per design specs.

Concerning the port when it is removed the volume is changed once again and it is no longer to design specs.

Now me personally I have no means to properly measure the subs or I would have already posted them.

Most I am willing to bet don't have the proper equipment including the proper test chamber unless they build and sell speakers for a living.

 

[Tube Radio]

If there were no need for an anechoic chamber do you really think the speaker designers would have them as they cost a lot and take up space?

Measure a sub outdoors? You serious? So all the other outside noise and the wind won't affect the measurement?

But they were designed using the round shape and if any computer program was used the shape was taken into consideration in the program.

You showed based on errant measurements since winisd has no way to specify dimensions for a bucket and the enclosure shape does matter. If it didn't, speaker manufacturers would only make one shape of enclosure and not waste time trying other shapes.

Sorry, I'll go with what a well respected high end speaker designer says over what you and some program says.

 

[Tube Radio]

Except the designer says it has to be built exactly as specified.

The graphs don't show anything below 100Hz so how do we know?

What you fail to grasp is that any measurements from something not built to design specs is not an indication of how the thing built to spec will perform.

 

[Poultrygeist]

The #2 rule here on AK is "Thread crapping" which is defined as disrespecting the topic or the intention of the thread. The intention of the thread is to provide information so that others can build their own bucket subs. It is not a format to publicly diss a build that others have enjoyed.

Another unwritten rule here is that others should never criticize any speaker or piece of gear they've never heard. That one has definitely been broken.

I'm close to reporting my own thread and having it closed if anymore of this continues.

bigx I hope you're reading this.

 

[Poultrygeist]

I originally asked if anyone has attempted to verify this build's performance claims. Because what evidence is available simply doesn't support it.

But I was the one who got attacked first for presenting my argument.

The many folks who have verified this build are those who have bothered to build it. Not just on AK but on AC and HSH forums. I'm sure those folks don't care about

the fact that you can't figure out why it works so well. Build it and see for yourself and then get back with us. Otherwise we don't need anymore arguments from you.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Please show me this verification, that's all I asked for. I just want to see one smidgen of proof this thing can audibly produce 25Hz. It was you who suggested I look at another design. I'm assuming because you know that proof doesn't exist. Judging by the attitude I've experienced so far. Even if I built this thing according to the instructions, and measure, and definitely prove it doesn't audibly produce anything close to 25Hz. There will be accusations that I did something wrong.

No one is required to show you sheet or provide any proof to you of anything regarding the buckets. It's your decision to build the buckets or not. When you start building speakers I hope you understand that the only thing that matters is ear verification. Measurements only confirm what one hears. I'm done with your thread crapping.

 

[Poultrygeist]

I just reported the thread crapping that's been going on too long.

 

[hjames]

I originally asked if anyone has attempted to verify this build's performance claims. Because what evidence is available simply doesn't support it.

But I was the one who got attacked first for presenting my argument.

Thread crapping reported. Multiple posts deleted to clean the thread ...
Don't make me do this again. There is no "Fairness doctrine" in the forum.
You don't like someone's topic, make your comment and move on.
Don't stay and continue crapping in another's thread. Thats just annoying.

Annoying is not an argument. If you don't like them, build a thread with things YOU like.

Common sense says YOU don't come in a thread and poop in someone else's bucket, for goodness sake!

I would prefer not to put a user in a timeout for thread abuse.
Hopefully one warning is enough.

 

[Tube Radio]

Thanks for cleaning up the thread.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Every time I take a photo of my gear there's always a "bucket" lurking in the background.