burn-in: does it matter?
- Thread starter thebeez85
- Start date
JimPA
Distinguished Member
My copy of the Stereophile Test Cd 3 has a burn in track designed for new components.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/istereophilei-test-cd-3-signals-testing-loudspeakers-rooms
http://www.stereophile.com/content/istereophilei-test-cd-3-signals-testing-loudspeakers-rooms
Honestly had no idea this thread would go in this direction. apologies to mods.
No problem. We're sorry you have to be crowded out by a bunch of monkeys.
MWalt
Super Member
I have first hand experience with break in having heard break in or burn in as some call it. Not on all new gear, mind you. On some new gear I noticed NO change from the start and with some gear I've had the difference was drastic. My Horn Shoppe Horns were TERRIBLE sounding with no hours on them. The vendor had warned me they would need at least 100 or so hours to start to sound good. He explained that the spiders in the drivers (Fostex 126en's) needed the break in. Well, he was absolutely, spot on right. That experience was probably my most extreme example of break in. Again, I don't think every piece of new gear has audible break in time, but some do, and some more than others.
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thebeez85
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I must say, without starting a "holy war", I believe any actual percieved improvement in audio equipment tends to lean towards components with actual moving parts..speakers and headphones for example. Not to delve too much into it, but this is ME thinking out loud; that's how I perceive the
alleged " burn-in phenomenon"
-Beez
(that safe enough a post?)
alleged " burn-in phenomenon"
-Beez
(that safe enough a post?
)
One other side. Many years ago i was building radio studios for ABC radio. When the studio was up they would run them 24/7. What they said, " solid state equipment, if it doesn't fail in 1000 hrs, it won't fail for the next 100,000 hours. That being said, having built kit amps, and done some mods, I'm convinced ( i wont tell you what parts) change audibly over a breakin period.
PAGS
Super Member
Probably already been said, but I believe "burn in" is appropriate for analog pieces-parts - obviously for tubes, and I think new or reconditioned speakers need to "settle."
I remain skeptical that burn in for digital goods produces any noticeable sonic benefits (my personal opinion, not demanding proof to the contrary). On the other hand, there are "analog" (tangible) parts on virtually all digital components...
I remain skeptical that burn in for digital goods produces any noticeable sonic benefits (my personal opinion, not demanding proof to the contrary). On the other hand, there are "analog" (tangible) parts on virtually all digital components...
bobbyonions
AK Member
My opinion is that the auible effects of burn-in sometimes exist, but the burn-in between the ears is far more common.
SuperjazzyJa
18 Wheel Member
+1 :thmbsp:
VinylRob
Vinylphile
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
So... I get it. If no one is there to hear it... an audio system doesn't go through the physical phenomena known as burn-in. Problem solved.
Kind of like the tree falling in the forest...
Happy Listening (enforcer)!
So... I get it. If no one is there to hear it... an audio system doesn't go through the physical phenomena known as burn-in. Problem solved.
Kind of like the tree falling in the forest...
Happy Listening (enforcer)!
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Who decides when it exists and when it's between your ears?
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
:thmbsp:
Ths364
Super Member
I've always thought that "burn-in" was manufacturing terminology to assure that a device was performing to spec before shipping. Many manufacturers do this to eliminate faulty units before shipping. I think of "break-in" as meaning the time it takes for mechanical or electrical circuits to reach stabilized performance under real-world operating conditions.
robgmn
Super Member
Based on posts I've read here: no one, because even if we prove existence or non-existence, a person's individual experience is the only proof that matters.
If I have to trust someone to tell me what I hear, it will be me. Furthermore, I maintain any differences we hear may come from unknown "measurables". There is no doubt in my mind, none whatsoever, that new forms of distortion and interactions, psyco acoustical and otherwise, will be discovered in the next 50 years. We may very well look back and say " hey that guy (any name here) had a pretty good ear".
I have never ascribed a "cause" to a difference, only that I hear one. I don't understand how 10 different sets of cables, all made of copper, all sounded differently but they do and sounded differently after they settled in but they did. I can't understand why, in a hobby that inspires so much joy, there are those what would endeavor to diminish that joy by demanding proof that the cause of such happiness and excitement exists.
Wow is this a long thread.
Usually mechanical items have a break-in period. The difficulty is that I don't know when that has been done by the manufacturer, or was it not done. It would be a real can of worms if the same product is released with different duration of break-ins. One person will hear one thing and likely not the same as another person. That could be a marketing disaster. I suspect the units are similar enough that a lot of break-in by the user is not needed. If I were the manufacturer, I would want everyone who buys my stuff to get the same already 'broken-in' gear and not have to worry about it, and the sound won't change with time.
Some manufacturers have said that if a product is shipped and the properties change, why would we do such a thing? How do they know when it is 'right'? Will they develop the product and test for years to be sure the it has settled into the final state? That would mean they have to know what 'gestation' state to make it so that the 'final' year-later state is what they want. That seems difficult to believe for me.
I can imagine that electrical stuff will vary with enviromental conditions, because the steady state after warm-up may differ from day-to-day, minute-to-minute, etc. In this vein, it would also be difficult to do a test measurement of whether break-in occurred when deciding whether the two signals at two different times are the same or different. It may be simply due to normal temporal variation due to conditions under operation have changed, and not to break-in at all (one possibility).
On the other hand, my experience with a speaker that was upgraded, the initial listening was not impressive as before. I thought I had made a mistake, and started feeling buyer's remorse. After listening very occasionally, extending over a period of months to over a year, the speakers seem to change and get better and better with each session. Lately, I listened a lot. The sound does not change that I can tell.
I would like to be able to quantify the change in that speaker sound to identify what makes it so, using some measurement. But I have not thought about it long enough to have a good method, yet. For example, I thought the original system sounded too bass-heavy, but gave way to a balanced sound later. That should be measurable (should have been, now too late).
I agree it can be pychoacoustics too.
My mind is still not settled on this issue.
Usually mechanical items have a break-in period. The difficulty is that I don't know when that has been done by the manufacturer, or was it not done. It would be a real can of worms if the same product is released with different duration of break-ins. One person will hear one thing and likely not the same as another person. That could be a marketing disaster. I suspect the units are similar enough that a lot of break-in by the user is not needed. If I were the manufacturer, I would want everyone who buys my stuff to get the same already 'broken-in' gear and not have to worry about it, and the sound won't change with time.
Some manufacturers have said that if a product is shipped and the properties change, why would we do such a thing? How do they know when it is 'right'? Will they develop the product and test for years to be sure the it has settled into the final state? That would mean they have to know what 'gestation' state to make it so that the 'final' year-later state is what they want. That seems difficult to believe for me.
I can imagine that electrical stuff will vary with enviromental conditions, because the steady state after warm-up may differ from day-to-day, minute-to-minute, etc. In this vein, it would also be difficult to do a test measurement of whether break-in occurred when deciding whether the two signals at two different times are the same or different. It may be simply due to normal temporal variation due to conditions under operation have changed, and not to break-in at all (one possibility).
On the other hand, my experience with a speaker that was upgraded, the initial listening was not impressive as before. I thought I had made a mistake, and started feeling buyer's remorse. After listening very occasionally, extending over a period of months to over a year, the speakers seem to change and get better and better with each session. Lately, I listened a lot. The sound does not change that I can tell.
I would like to be able to quantify the change in that speaker sound to identify what makes it so, using some measurement. But I have not thought about it long enough to have a good method, yet. For example, I thought the original system sounded too bass-heavy, but gave way to a balanced sound later. That should be measurable (should have been, now too late).
I agree it can be pychoacoustics too.
My mind is still not settled on this issue.
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
I suspect you're right about that.
VinylRob
Vinylphile
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
:thmbsp::thmbsp:
That's what I was kind of pondering after read through the many layers of the onion, but couldn't resist the tree in the forest analogy.
Happy Listening (enforcer)!
:thmbsp::thmbsp:
That's what I was kind of pondering after read through the many layers of the onion, but couldn't resist the tree in the forest analogy.
Happy Listening (enforcer)!
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