C46 Preamplifier--Help me make the right call...

[4-2-7]

To be brutally honest, I haven't found sonic differences between the various Macs (except tuners) that passed through my hands all that significant - which is just as it should be when talking McIntosh.

Beyond a certain point, there are few "night & day" differences; those that do exist are on an extremely subtle order of magnitude and these distinctions are usually only made by those who are not only well trained, but with the most acute hearing. The latter quality pretty much rules out most males over the age of 40 or 50, into which category I squarely fall - sad to say.

Maybe you should get a C100 or 200 before you get much older

 

[TSmith8605]

Hello. A preamplifier question if I may.
My current set-up: MA6300 (used as preamp only), MC402, Jolida JD100 Tube CD player & Klipsch RF-7 II's
Two channel audio for music only & 100% CD usage
Large room . . .

If you're not concerned about tone controls or EQ and have only the one CD source, then all your preamp is doing is providing an active (buffered) volume and balance control to your amp and you're only using the line section of the pre-amp. I could make a case that the line section (aside from tone and EQ parts) of a preamp is the easiest part of the chain to build and so likely the part that will cause the least sound degradation. And you already have a McIntosh line preamp in the MA6300. So I think that while you may or may not hear a sound difference, you could likely get bigger improvements per dollar elsewhere, like the CD player.

In fact, if your CD player has an output volume control, you could try connecting the CD player directly to the MC402 and by-pass the preamp altogether. You could at least try this to see if it works for you.

In a preamp, EQ circuits and the phono preamp sections are more complex than the line section and the phono section has to deal with much lower signal levels vulnerable to noise. So if you want those (phono or EQ) features, then I think preamp selection becomes much more critical. My 2-cents. . .

 

[62caddy]

Maybe you should get a C100 or 200 before you get much older

Nah - no tone controls a deal breaker for me. I could be tempted if the right C40 showed up at the right price, possibly a C37 but the matching issue would really bug me. If only they did the C40 with remote...

 

[4-2-7]

Nah - no tone controls a deal breaker for me.

So you like coloring, lack of transparency and not being neutral.

Kidding you of course

 

[ODS123]

Nah - no tone controls a deal breaker for me. I could be tempted if the right C40 showed up at the right price, possibly a C37 but the matching issue would really bug me. If only they did the C40 with remote...

Exactly... I know I'm repeating myself when I say that Tone controls, when zero'd or taken out of the circuit with a defeat switch, do absolutely no audible harm whatsoever to the signal. ..But when you encounter that inevitable occasional song that's a tad too bright or too boomy, they are an absolutely essential tool for many music lovers.

IMHO, One of the most outlandish claims made by golden-ear audiophiles is that they can hear the incremental damage done by each and every signal break - such as those necessary to incorporate Tone controls.

 

[damacman]

Dan - caddy isn't ready to let go of that tone control stuff ...

 

[mprince]

IMHO, One of the most outlandish claims made by golden-ear audiophiles is that they can hear the incremental damage done by each and every signal break - such as those necessary to incorporate Tone controls.

Or the ones who claim integrated amps are better than separates because of the wires connecting the pre and the amp

 

[4-2-7]

In fact, if your CD player has an output volume control, you could try connecting the CD player directly to the MC402 and by-pass the preamp altogether. You could at least try this to see if it works for you.

He is very new at this stuff, this can lead him to blow his speakers up.

@Z4J
Do not do this!!!! your Jolida JD100 has a volume control but it's for your headphone section only and not the main output of the unit.

 

[62caddy]

So you like coloring, lack of transparency and not being neutral.

Kidding you of course

The C32 I have has a tone defeat switch which completely bypasses the tone circuits.

Believe me when I tell you it's impossible to distinguish whether the EQ is bypassed and when EQ is active (with controls set to flat).

As far as I'm concerned all this sonic degradation attributable to tone controls is a lot of hooey. Besides which, never could I do without tone controls without which, the sound would be far more objectionable (when needed) than any negligible amount of sonic degradation could ever begin to pose.

 

[4-2-7]

Funny how McIntosh engineers out all tone controls on their flagship models because of added noise and RIF interference inherent to switches. Maybe we should give them a call and say we cant hear any difference, stuff all the switch they want in one box, it's all cool...

 

[ODS123]

Or the ones who claim integrated amps are better than separates because of the wires connecting the pre and the amp

That's not something I've ever said. ..But I have said that there is no engineering rationale for having pre-amp and power amp as separate components. Today, integrated amps have THD, S/N, and F/R that exceed the threshold of our hearing.

So why bother with two boxes, particularly when you potentiate hum/hiss issues that arise from additional cables, power-cords and possible power outlets?

 

[ODS123]

The C32 I have has a tone defeat switch which completely bypasses the tone circuits.

Believe me when I tell you it's impossible to distinguish whether the EQ is bypassed and when EQ is active (with controls set to flat).

As far as I'm concerned all this sonic degradation attributable to tone controls is a lot of hooey. Besides which, never could I do without tone controls without which, the sound would be far more objectionable (when needed) than any negligible amount of sonic degradation could ever begin to pose.

This is also true of my MA6600.

 

[4-2-7]

The C32 I have has a tone defeat switch which completely bypasses the tone circuits.

But it's a switch,

Believe me when I tell you it's impossible to distinguish whether the EQ is bypassed and when EQ is active (with controls set to flat).

I don't disbelieve this is not true, but it doesn't say that the unit would not sound far better/ different if the EQ was gutted from the unit along with the switches. Less is more Caddy, and why McIntosh goes to great effort not to have it in flagship models.

 

[ODS123]

Funny how McIntosh engineers out all tone controls on their flagship models because of added noise and RIF interference inherent to switches. Maybe we should give them a call and say we cant hear any difference, stuff all the switch they want in one box, it's all cool...

Many owners of their "Flagship" pre-amp will be using outboard Room EQ - such as the McIntosh MEN220 - which is the mother of all tone controls.

You'll see that Mac includes the MEN220 in the list of components comprising their "Reference System."

Providing exotic tone controls by way of a separate component fit's with the same groundless high-end notions of "separating everything" as having separate power amp, pre-amp, phono pre-amp, CD-Transport, DAC, and so on and so one. Many of these can be combined with ZERO audible impact but are not b/c audiophiles want to have a pile of components and hi-fi mfgs are happy to oblige.

 

[mprince]

So why bother with two boxes, particularly when you potentiate hum/hiss issues that arise from additional cables, power-cords...

Flexibility. I can replace or upgrade a preamp or amp easier and keep the component I wish to remain in my system. But that's me, I'm not here to push my bias and viewpoints on others.

 

[ODS123]

Flexibility. I can replace or upgrade a preamp or amp easier and keep the component I wish to remain in my system. But that's me, I'm not here to push my bias and viewpoints on others.

I totally agree the they may make sense for that reason. But I disagree with those who say it needs to be that way for fidelity's sake.

 

[ODS123]

If the few signal breaks in tone controls audibly damage the signal during music playback, then why don't the HUNDREDS of signal breaks in a mixing board do the same during the recording process??

 

[62caddy]

Funny how McIntosh engineers out all tone controls on their flagship models because of added noise and RIF interference inherent to switches. Maybe we should give them a call and say we cant hear any difference, stuff all the switch they want in one box, it's all cool...

I'm sorry but I place more credence the impartiality on readings from precision laboratory instruments than subjective anecdotal accounts of A performing better than B. So does McIntosh.

There are several reasons Mc chooses not to incorporate tone controls into certain products, first and foremost is because there is a market for equipment so designed and they have to do whatever is in its best business interests. It also manufacturers both tube and solid state equipment for the same reason.

None of that means that one inherently - and necessarily - performs any better than the other.

In this hobby, there's no shortage of products (and product designs) whose sonic worth are highly questionable in my opinion. It's also my opinion that many have convinced themselves their hearing is a lot better than it really is.

In any case, since according to McIntosh's redoubtable published specs giving the C40 the performance "edge" over other models designed without tone controls, it would strongly suggest than the mere presence of tone controls poses no significant detriment to sonic quality, if any and McIntosh itself would be the first to acknowledge the fact.

THAT SAID - I will acknowledge that over time pots DO become dirty and yes, will need a squirt of Deoxit every now and then to keep them performing as they should.

 

[mprince]

To the OP - do you have a Mac dealer near you? Perhaps you can do a side by side comparison with your equipment. Apologies for side tracking your thread and not answering your question.

 

[damacman]

Ya'll need to start a new thread on the benefits or lack thereof of tone controls . . .