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Cable - audible differences?

Discussion in 'The Cutting Edge' started by soundmig, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Smart Ass Sponsor Subscriber

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    I think with people who want to just assume and follow others online with preconceived views without trying for themselves tend to make huge assumptions as to what's needed.

    Some people will spend a ton of money on big components buying far more than they need stacking it all together.

    It's kinda like phono cartridges that are small and really not seen. Some will buy $500 tables every few months looking for a sound change and owning 4 decks. Meanwhile when you tell them to go buy a $1000 cartridge and put it on their $500 table they say the table isn't worth that and keep using the same $200 MM cart.

    They don't find value in small components even though what I mentioned would have brought far more SQ change and cost less in the long run.

    I also find it funny with this preconceived thought on cables, the naysayer makes hug leaps. They go right to prices in the $10,000 and up generalizing the whole topic. I have a pretty nice system but my cables and IC are all below $300 a pair. Now that's still expensive for the guy that thinks more than $25 is a wast, but no they don't want to think about everything in between.
     

     

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  2. Hyfi

    Hyfi Addicted Member

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    The AR Tube Pre Amp is "WHY" your system is revealing.

    I have recently convinced myself that a really good pre amp is key to a good revealing system and it will help lesser speakers and amps shine better than if using a lesser pre amp.
     
  3. unfairlane

    unfairlane Well-Known Member

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    My conclusions has wery little to do with any theorys, it is all based on jaw-dropping experiences trying out "crazy" wiring that every educated audiophile would tell me made no sense. You know, skin-effect and other "scientific" calculations. But when they hear my system they allways ask the same, "what is the secret behind the lifelike dynamics.." No1 is huge solid wiring.

    12awg (solid) is not in any way "clouded" but your amp will sound like a smaller one, not have the authority and control that a 9-7awg solid core will open up for. Passive filters needs to be made by the same thinking btw.

    Note; this sounds crazy to most audiophiles, Guess that`s why so wery few have tryed. They claim to "know better". And every enegineer will tell you that a stranded wire will perform as good as or even better than a solid core wire. And it siply too cheap for some snobs.
     
  4. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    The amps also are what is helping with that. I mean, when I used them before they were rebuilt, they were like MEH (this is with the ARC pre too). So, I think the rebuild helped.

    I also have a Pioneer M-22 amp that is a REALLY revealing amp.

    Synergy helps :D
     
  5. Hyfi

    Hyfi Addicted Member

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    5,751
    Location:
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    4-2-7, spot on

    I was just recently going thru my old Audio Video files and receipts doing some cleanup and found all the ones from all the cables I bought back in the 90s, which I still use today in one setup or another.

    Most ICs are Tara Labs and range between $40 and $100

    My main system, which I bought as a system, Pre, Amp, Speakers, and Cables came with 2 pair of Synergistic Kaleidoscope ICs which listed for $350 in early 90s and a 14' pair of matching Synergistic speaker cables that cost the original owner $1400.

    I don't think I would ever drop that much on speaker cables but they did better my Tara Labs Prism speaker cables.
     
  6. Hyfi

    Hyfi Addicted Member

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    5,751
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    Isn't this also the same reason an aftermarket 12gauge Power cord ,makes a system sound better than the stock 16gauge barely shielded cable does?
     

     

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  7. unfairlane

    unfairlane Well-Known Member

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    Yes, a bit of the same puzzle. Although power with higher voltage does not need the same area, 12awg is recommended as a minimum.
     
  8. Wojciech

    Wojciech AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Sure , there are no absolutes .
    As long as Ford is not paying for the wires he is manufacturing all is cool :)
     
  9. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    Nope - it is separate and works out of his garage - and he doesn't work for Ford :D
     
  10. Wojciech

    Wojciech AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I know he doesn't .I've met the guy and the cables are nice as well as the proprietor.:)
    Everybody makes cables now . It's the most profitable audio enterprise if one manage to get noticed. I think if I whine long enough I will open a cable business as well. People will think that such a sophisticated whiner must be onto something and the cables are probably worth a try . Isn't it like all successful audio businesses start??
    Happy New Year!
     
  11. MannyE

    MannyE Exterminate! Subscriber

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    If you've ever tried making your own cables, then some of the prices really don't seem crazy. I will probably never pay "hundreds" of dollars for a cable, but there is something to be said for a nice neat matching set of custom length cabling. Is it worth a few hundred bucks to have a clean and orderly installation behind the rack? Some may say that absolutely not. They are fine with hidden spaghetti. Not me. I like to look behind the rack and see neat and clean "piping"

    Now I have no scientific proof of this, but I will swear that neat cables make my system sound better.
     
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  12. Hyfi

    Hyfi Addicted Member

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    They do because if you have wires crossing wires and ICs crossing PCs you will have issues. I have a tough time with my rack because it houses 3 different systems but I am working to route all PCs one way and all ICs away from them and not crossing.
     
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  13. audiotemp

    audiotemp Well-Known Member

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    Can you tell me where that graph is from? You say Jensen...did you mean Belden? In any case, can you point me to the source?
     
  14. soundmig

    soundmig AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I started this thread simply to point people toward something that seemed like it might be interesting in the realm of cables and the science that seems to be going into some of them. The manufacturer certainly has the resources to fund some "real science", so I'm hopeful that something of value will be presented.

    Since this is the "cutting edge" and real world experience is important, let me assure you that my interest in cable is from "real world" experience. As a former high-end Dealer, I've played with a wide variety of cables on a wide variety of equipment. The cable lines I have the most experience with are: Cardas, Audioquest, Nordost, Twisted-Pair Designs, Harmonic Technologies, Canare, Mogami, Acoustic Zen and Westlake Audio (yes they make cable products). There has to be some scientific explanation to why various cables sound different (better is subjective, but they do sound "different"). I'm hoping that this series of articles in Copper Magazine brings some enlightenment to what is seemingly somewhat of a black art.

    Personally, I don't think we need to debate which cables are best, who is wasting money or not wasting money, as that is all irrelevant to the topic. An interesting look at the science behind cable products is all that I intended to bring your attention to. As the two articles thus far seem to jive pretty well with what the only credentialed cable "engineer" that I know personally has said about the subject - my interest has been piqued. I hope that all of you enjoy attempting to digest the information being presented. Its a bit over my head, but I find it interesting nonetheless.
     
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  15. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    It is absolutely a great topic to discuss - nothing to be sorry about :D :thumbsup:
     
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  16. tromba

    tromba Super Member

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    Now this brings up an interesting point. First I do have some Audioquest cables but nothing really "high end". I have never personally done comparisons with my system to see if I could hear any difference. This may be a weak analogy but lets suppose that one a scale from 1 to 10 that 10 is the best system we can afford. At what point do I pay for better speaker cables (assuming they do make a difference) vs. upgrading my CD player. Which will bring me closest to the 10 at my spending limit? Is a better cartridge a better investment to get to a 10? Is a better set of speakers best? Speaker cables?

    My thought has been that cables may be the last investment. No idea if this is right or not. How do YOU decide where to put the money to make your system sound better? At what point to cables enter in?
     

     

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  17. Archguy

    Archguy Official Roiurama Factory Rep Subscriber

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    Room treatments. If necessary, buy a new house. Now that's high end [​IMG]
     
  18. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Smart Ass Sponsor Subscriber

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    I would say to start thinking about speaker cables and IC when you step out of consumer goods for for the masses. Even the manufactures start providing options at that point. A old receiver or integrates with spring clip binding post opposed to a old preamp power that they started providing banana speaker terminals.

    When one start stepping into separates or high end integrates they tend to start thinking of the quality of their connecting of all that equipment to keep noise, hums and RIF out of the system. While the individual components are of good quality with lower noise floor all that can be lost in a rats nest of crappy cabling hooking it together.

    In my bedroom I have a late 90 integrate with pure OFC regular speaker cable. I use a WiFi DAC off my computer that has sub $100 USB and RCA interconnects, nothing fancy but it stops RFI and noise getting into the system that I had before using cheap IC.

    So if your thinking of stand alone phono stages and separates one should hooking it up with cables that don't let noise into the system. I don't look at building a system with first and last components Im going to use. I think about all I'm going to need and plan for it and have it all together.

    When I went to the mac dealer and bought a used C100 preamp and new MC275, I bought a 3m pair of Tributaries series 6 XLR to connect them, and had him give me a free pair of Audioquest rocket 33 speaker cables because I was spending money with him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  19. Joe Dawson

    Joe Dawson Active Member

    Messages:
    200
    I saw Jensign and mistook for Jensen. My apologies. Here is the link.

    http://www.jensign.com/RG58U/index.html

    keep on truckin

    joe
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  20. audiotemp

    audiotemp Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018

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