Cantilever issue?

[onemonk909]

Guys, I hope you TT wizards can help me out.

I just got a Pioneer PL-518. It came with an aftermarket ADC QLM 32 MKIII cart with a brand new stylus. I say "aftermarket" because while the cart says "QLM 32 MKIII," it does not have "ADC" on it, which the original ones appeared to have.

Anyway it looks like the VTF range for this is 2-4, with 3 suggested. So I set it at 3, and have only spun a few LPs on it.

Sound quality is okay but not great, and no distortion through my Sony Dream System stereo, running through an ART DJPRE Phono Preamp.

But I've noticed the cantilever appears to bend when hitting the vinyl, and it's a low rider. This is at VTF 3. If I dial back to 2, it's not as noticeable, but sound quality seems to be thinner. I haven't done a thorough A/B in fears I was damaging my vinyl.

I made a Youtube video of this phenomenon -- the first part shows the VTF at 2, then when the needle drops the second time it's at the suggested VTF of 3. In each you'll see the cantilever seems to bend.

Now, my only gauge is my Audio Technica 60, which has an Audio Technica ATN3600DLX stylus on it. I put an LP on this one, dropped the needle on it, and the cantilever did NOT appear to bend as in the video below. But of course, the AT has a much lighter toner arm, so that might be why.

Anyway, here's the video -- if someone could watch this and tell me if this looks normal, I'd appreciate it. For the past 20 years I've only been playing new plastic junk TTs, so all this is new to me -- I mean balancing the toner arm was one of the hardest things I've had to do in the past several months, which is really saying something when you factor in that I have a 15 month old.

Thanks!

video:

 

[boreas]

First of all, your cartridge isn't a QLM. Judging by the gold body, it's most likely an XLM of one or another generation. The way to tell which generation it is, and what stylus is appropriate for it is to measure the coil resistance with a digital volt/ohm meter.

The bending, as you call it, is normal deflection in the stylus suspension. All styli do that to one degree or another but yours is doing it to excess, meaning that the stylus suspension has partially collapsed. There are ways to deal with that but you're dealing with an aftermarket stylus of unknown condition and it's the wrong stylus to boot. By far the best solution is to replace the stylus with the correct one. There are some relatively inexpensive after.market styli that are of good quality that we can recommend but first we need to determine which cartridge you have.

John

 

[onemonk909]

Thanks so much for the quick response! OK, that was just my guess on what the cartridge is because that is what is written on the front of it. But the eBay seller who sold the turntable to me told me that the cart and stylus was the following:

"the stylus is brand new installed recently QLM 32 MKIII so the cartridge has to be either ADC P32 or K5E."

This really confused me, because I couldn't find any cartridges by this name and so just assumed he might have been confused. Does any of this make sense?

Here is another question, could I just put my Audio Technica ATN3600DLX on this turntable?

 

[boreas]

Yes, but the ADC, with the right stylus, is the better cartridge.

John

 

[onemonk909]

OK, so you think that I just need to replace the stylus? If I take the VTF back to 2 do you think that will minimize the issue for the time being? I'm pretty sure I balanced the toner arm correctly, because I spent a long time doing it, and I'm wondering if I maybe hit the cantilever while I was doing the balancing. Really have no idea, I just noticed that it had to be an issue that it was riding so low.

 

[ear4audio]

Genuine ADC QLM series stylus grips do not have "ADC" on the name plate; only the "QLM" identifier.

 

[boreas]

OK, so you think that I just need to replace the stylus? If I take the VTF back to 2 do you think that will minimize the issue for the time being? I'm pretty sure I balanced the toner arm correctly, because I spent a long time doing it, and I'm wondering if I maybe hit the cantilever while I was doing the balancing. Really have no idea, I just noticed that it had to be an issue that it was riding so low.

It isn't a question of anything getting bent. As I said the stylus suspension, a rubber grommet into which the cantilever is inserted, is either deteriorated from age or too soft to begin with. Of course, though you seem pretty sure you set the tracking force correctly, setting it too high will cause the suspension grommet to compress more than it should and the cantilever to deflect ("bend") more than it should.

John

 

[onemonk909]

OK, I set the VTF back to 2 and the anti skate to 2 and it seems a lot better. The VTF is 2-4, with 3 suggested. It doesn't ride nearly as low at 2 and the sound quality is still pretty much the same. I would do another video but I think at that point I would start to annoy everyone. I did include 2 Jpegs though. In the 1st you can see that it is branded QLM, which makes me assume that is what this cart is. In the 2nd is a close up of the stylus, which I assume is still in good condition. I guess I just don't want to damage my vinyl and also just want to ensure I have all of this set up correctly.

 

[boreas]

OK, I set the VTF back to 2 and the anti skate to 2 and it seems a lot better. The VTF is 2-4, with 3 suggested. It doesn't ride nearly as low at 2 and the sound quality is still pretty much the same. I would do another video but I think at that point I would start to annoy everyone. I did include 2 Jpegs though. In the 1st you can see that it is branded QLM, which makes me assume that is what this cart is. In the 2nd is a close up of the stylus, which I assume is still in good condition. I guess I just don't want to damage my vinyl and also just want to ensure I have all of this set up correctly.

No, the stylus is a QLM stylus but the cartridge is an XLM (or perhaps a VLM). Both of those models are gold like yours. The QLMs are silver.

John

 

[onemonk909]

John, thanks again for your replies -- I'm very glad I created this thread and you responded! I think you've figured out the issue. It was my dumb mistake to assume the cart was a QLM; I didn't realize that was just the stylus branding. So the eBay seller was right, of course. I've dug around on the internet and have finally found an image of an ADC K5E and an ADC P32, ie the two carts he thought this one might be, and neither look like the one I have -- as you say, it's gold. So you think I have an XLM? If I'm not mistaken, that is the higher line...so I should get an XLM or aftermarket replacement stylus for it to truly reap the XLM benefits, correct?

As for solving the issue...in my mistaken belief this was a QLM, I set the VTF at 3. But if this is an XLM, then I had it MUCH too high -- the XLM MKIII has a tracking range of 0.90 to 1.5!! So I was way beyond that. No doubt this is why it was riding so low?

I only played maybe 3 hours total on the turntable at that force...do you think this might've damaged the stylus or the LPs? Probably not, but thought I'd ask...and as you said in your very first post, it clearly has the wrong stylus on it. My assumption is whoever owned this before thought it was the K5E or P32 and thus bought the QLM 32 MKIII stylus currently on it...which retails for fourteen bucks! So clearly not top of the line... Would something like this be better? https://www.lpgear.com/product/ADCSXLMIIIIMP.html

 

[Thomas_AA]

The deflection in the video is by far to big so clearly too high VTF. Also you may damage the suspension by doing so. If it still rides low with correct VTF it is damaged, if not, it is probably ok.

 

[malden]

John, thanks again for your replies -- I'm very glad I created this thread and you responded! I think you've figured out the issue. It was my dumb mistake to assume the cart was a QLM; I didn't realize that was just the stylus branding. So the eBay seller was right, of course. I've dug around on the internet and have finally found an image of an ADC K5E and an ADC P32, ie the two carts he thought this one might be, and neither look like the one I have -- as you say, it's gold. So you think I have an XLM? If I'm not mistaken, that is the higher line...so I should get an XLM or aftermarket replacement stylus for it to truly reap the XLM benefits, correct?

As for solving the issue...in my mistaken belief this was a QLM, I set the VTF at 3. But if this is an XLM, then I had it MUCH too high -- the XLM MKIII has a tracking range of 0.90 to 1.5!! So I was way beyond that. No doubt this is why it was riding so low?

I only played maybe 3 hours total on the turntable at that force...do you think this might've damaged the stylus or the LPs? Probably not, but thought I'd ask...and as you said in your very first post, it clearly has the wrong stylus on it. My assumption is whoever owned this before thought it was the K5E or P32 and thus bought the QLM 32 MKIII stylus currently on it...which retails for fourteen bucks! So clearly not top of the line... Would something like this be better? https://www.lpgear.com/product/ADCSXLMIIIIMP.html

Here's another option for your cartridge...

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=35

 

[illinoisteve]

Here's a tip that might help. Rather than adjusting the VTF by a full gram at a time, much smaller increments might be helpful. If the sound seems a little thin at 2 grams, next bump it up by one or two tenths of a gram, or at most by a quarter gram. Perhaps it will sound great at 2.2 or 2.25 grams. Even if you have to eventually (again by small increments) go up to 2.5 grams to get the sound right, the cantilever deflection might be more reasonable at that VTF than at 3 grams.

 

[boreas]

John, thanks again for your replies -- I'm very glad I created this thread and you responded! I think you've figured out the issue. It was my dumb mistake to assume the cart was a QLM; I didn't realize that was just the stylus branding. So the eBay seller was right, of course. I've dug around on the internet and have finally found an image of an ADC K5E and an ADC P32, ie the two carts he thought this one might be, and neither look like the one I have -- as you say, it's gold. So you think I have an XLM? If I'm not mistaken, that is the higher line...so I should get an XLM or aftermarket replacement stylus for it to truly reap the XLM benefits, correct?

As for solving the issue...in my mistaken belief this was a QLM, I set the VTF at 3. But if this is an XLM, then I had it MUCH too high -- the XLM MKIII has a tracking range of 0.90 to 1.5!! So I was way beyond that. No doubt this is why it was riding so low?

I only played maybe 3 hours total on the turntable at that force...do you think this might've damaged the stylus or the LPs? Probably not, but thought I'd ask...and as you said in your very first post, it clearly has the wrong stylus on it. My assumption is whoever owned this before thought it was the K5E or P32 and thus bought the QLM 32 MKIII stylus currently on it...which retails for fourteen bucks! So clearly not top of the line... Would something like this be better? https://www.lpgear.com/product/ADCSXLMIIIIMP.html

First off, the correct amount of tracking force is determined by the stylus, not the cartridge, so the correct tracking force for your cartridge is per the specs for the QLM 32, (2 to 4 g), not the cartridge body which, as I said, is either an XLM or a VLM. So setting the VTF to 3g was appropriate and will have caused no damage. Even if it was set too high, the chances that you damaged the stylus suspension are nil. So don't worry about damage.

And again, assuming that you succeeded in setting the tracking force correctly for the stylus, that isn't the reason for its riding so low. The reason is that the suspension has softened due to age or the environmental conditions under which it was stored.

As for choosing the correct stylus, that's going to depend on which of the several versions of the XLM (or VLM) body you have. Each has different electrical specifications which also determine which stylus is most appropriate. But, as you discovered, the "wrong" stylus will work. It's just that it won't achieve the correct tonal "signature" that ADC intended. But if you want to bypass the step of determining what cartridge you have, you can get this original ADC stylus. It will sound pretty good in all of the XLM/VLM bodies.

http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/cata...chType=MfgNameNeedles&MfgName=ADC&Categories=

John

 

[revox-b77]

Do you have a multi-meter? You need to measure the resistance of the cartridge body so we can tell which XLM body you have.

 

[Thomas_AA]

First off, the correct amount of tracking force is determined by the stylus, not the cartridge, so the correct tracking force for your cartridge is per the specs for the QLM 32, (2 to 4 g), not the cartridge body which, as I said, is either an XLM or a VLM. So setting the VTF to 3g was appropriate and will have caused no damage. Even if it was set too high, the chances that you damaged the stylus suspension are nil. So don't worry about damage.

And again, assuming that you succeeded in setting the tracking force correctly for the stylus, that isn't the reason for its riding so low. The reason is that the suspension has softened due to age or the environmental conditions under which it was stored.

As for choosing the correct stylus, that's going to depend on which of the several versions of the XLM (or VLM) body you have. Each has different electrical specifications which also determine which stylus is most appropriate. But, as you discovered, the "wrong" stylus will work. It's just that it won't achieve the correct tonal "signature" that ADC intended. But if you want to bypass the step of determining what cartridge you have, you can get this original ADC stylus. It will sound pretty good in all of the XLM/VLM bodies.

http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/cata...chType=MfgNameNeedles&MfgName=ADC&Categories=

John

Whatever the reason, the deflection seen in the video is by far too much. So VTF has to be lower.

 

[ear4audio]

As for choosing the correct stylus, that's going to depend on which of the several versions of the XLM (or VLM) body you have. Each has different electrical specifications which also determine which stylus is most appropriate.
John

There are some visual clues as to the version of XLM cartridge you have. The older version which has lower resistance and inductance numbers have open screw mounting holes with a "made in USA" label on the top (the 2 bodies on the right). There are some new version bodies with open screw holes but they do not have the label on the top. Most of the newer versions -- with higher resistance and inductance numbers-- have enclosed screw holes.

 

[boreas]

Whatever the reason, the deflection seen in the video is by far too much. So VTF has to be lower.

But it's important to know the reason. If the reason is that the VTF was set too high for the stylus' specifications, by all means, lower it. But, if the reason is that the stylus suspension has deteriorated or failed completely, the stylus can't perform as intended. This will result in mistracking which will damage the record. In extreme cases, the stylus will actually skip because the suspension doesn't offer enough resistance to keep the stylus planted in the groove. Finally, in the extremest of cases, the suspension will have deteriorated to the point where any reasonable amount of VTF will cause the cantilever to deflect so far that the cartridge body or stylus grip will actually come into contact with the record.

So, simply reducing the VTF to a point outside of manufacturer's specifications to compensate for a failed suspension isn't a viable solution to the problem. There are ways (within limits) to restore both the elasticity of a hardened suspension or the firmness of a collapsed one but simply reducing VTF ignores the underlying problem and risks damage to your records.

John

 

[Thomas_AA]

But it's important to know the reason. If the reason is that the VTF was set too high for the stylus' specifications, by all means, lower it. But, if the reason is that the stylus suspension has deteriorated or failed completely, the stylus can't perform as intended. This will result in mistracking which will damage the record. In extreme cases, the stylus will actually skip because the suspension doesn't offer enough resistance to keep the stylus planted in the groove. Finally, in the extremest of cases, the suspension will have deteriorated to the point where any reasonable amount of VTF will cause the cantilever to deflect so far that the cartridge body or stylus grip will actually come into contact with the record.

So, simply reducing the VTF to a point outside of manufacturer's specifications to compensate for a failed suspension isn't a viable solution to the problem. There are ways (within limits) to restore both the elasticity of a hardened suspension or the firmness of a collapsed one but simply reducing VTF ignores the underlying problem and risks damage to your records.

John

Sure, the stylus suspension may be broken, I agree. If not, the VTF is too high. In either way, it will be very bad for the sound and the for the records.

 

[boreas]

Sure, the stylus suspension may be broken, I agree. If not, the VTF is too high. In either way, it will be very bad for the sound and the for the records.

Ni!