Canton LE 400

[Tony124]

Hi,

today I saw a pair of Canton LE 400 at a garage sale and got them for 7 EUR. I did a quick test when I got home and one seems ok, the second one has kind of distorted/muddy sound. I opened both to take a look inside, here are the photos if you are interested:

https://imgur.com/a/NIi2K

Do you think it is possible to repair the speaker, and is it worthwhile? I have very little experience in this area, can do at least things like soldering, replacing capacitors etc.

Regards,
Tony

 

[swechsler]

With those fender washers holding the woofers, it's obvious that someone has been inside these speakers before.

Regarding the sound, It's likely that this can be repaired. My first guess would be that the capacitors need replacing. I'd do them in both speakers even though one is still currently working. However, before you do this, it might be worth trying swapping the drivers from one cabinet to the other and see if the problem stays with the cabinet or moves with the drivers.

 

[Tony124]

yes I have also noticed I am not the first one who opened the speakers. I will try out your suggestion and see what comes out.

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Part of your problem is that the woofers are not original. I'll have to do a little looking but I am fairly sure that they should have a 2216 woofer. It would normally be mounted with the "wings" of the frame placed directly over the studs.There would also be a small plastic bushing between the frame and cabinet for a spacer.




Cheers,
James

 

[Bratwurst7s]

The crossover caps most likely won't have the µF values printed on them, just volts. If that's the case look here...
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/canton-speaker-capacitor-reference-thread.740362/

If your caps aren't on the list let me know and I'll try to find the values for you.

Cheers,
James

 

[Tony124]

thanks James, very valuable information. The finding about non-original woofers is very spot on; it makes me considering hard if it's worthwhile to spend time on repairing these boxes. The original woofers you mentioned (Canton 2216) cost about 40,-/pair on ebay.de. What is your opinion/recommendation?

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi Tony. Something that I forgot to say. Welcome to Audiokarma!

Yes, I saw that pair of 2216 on ebay, that was the quickest place to find a photo to show you so I shamelessly copied the photos. €40 for a pair is actually a pretty good price. They have rubber surrounds so there should be no concerns there. If you paid in Euros then I'm guessing that you are in Europe and the seller states that he will do shipping inside all of Europe.

I just measured the woofer stand off bushings for my LE 600's for you. They are 8mm tall with an 8mm OD and 4.5mm ID/hole. This should give the correct distance from the cab front so that the cork seal on the woofers isn't crushed or distorted. Basicly anything 8mm tall will work.

I just took another look at your photos and spotted another problem. The tweeters are not original either. Can you measure the distance between the mounting studs? Should be either 80mm x 60mm or 96mm x 60 mm. If it's 96x60 then a #2219 should be the right tweeter and you are in luck because I have a pair here that I don't need. If not then I'll have to look around a bit to find out.

In good condition the speakers should sound pretty good. Build year should be somewhere in the mid 1970's and the LE was their best line then. I have a pair of LE 600's here that I've just started restoring after a 2 year wait. Your grills look like they can be easily straightened up and the walnut cabs look super when sanded and oiled.

My opinion? Since you only paid €7 for the speakers I think that it would be well worth restoring them. But I do have to admit that I an a big Canton fan and am not completely objective. (but I have no affiliation with Canton, just a fan)

I just wrote an email to a contact at Canton and asked him if they can confirm the driver numbers or supply schematics. He usually replies in about 48 hours and I'll let you know what I find out.

Cheers,
James

 

[Tony124]

Hi James,

thank you for your kind words. I also read your posts about restoring your Canton boxes in this forum and find them very informative and interesting. Great passion for restoring those "Schätze vom Keller".

I am at work now so I cannot measure the distance between the mounting studs. I will do that tonight and post the result.

This seems an interesting hobby project and I think I will learn a few things during the restoration.

Regards,
Tony

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi Tony, I'm always happy to try to help other members when able.

I just got a reply from Canton, he is going to search their archives for the LE 400 schematics and should be back to me in the next day or 2.

Cheers,
James

 

[Tony124]

Hi James,

last night I spent some time cleaning the boxes and testing them.

- the distance between the mounting studs are 80mm x 60mm
- after cleaning the parts and putting them back, the problem with muddy sound on 2nd box is gone. Perhaps some cable needs re-soldering
- it seems the cabinets are not made from solid wood, but veneered (furniert)? If it's the case, would it be a problem to sand/oil it again?
- I compared the boxes with my current speakers (Magnat Vector 55, amp Technics V6X) and to be honest I was not impressed. The Magnats have more detailed sound to me, even at low volume. Maybe the reason is that the woofers/tweeters are not original?

Regards,
Tony

 

[swechsler]

Tony, speaker cabinets aren't made from solid wood because it's not ideal for its sound properties. Cabinets from the mid 1960s and earlier usually used plywood. In the 1960s speaker manufacturers started using veneered particle board, which, judging by your pictures, is what you have, and these days most good quality speakers are made from veneered MDF (medium-density fiberboard), which became popular in the 1990s. If you want to sand your speakers, do it gently so you don't sand through the veneer. And yes, I'd suspect that the reason for the poor sound quality is the driver replacement.

Unless you find someone who has the same speakers with damaged cabinets, it's likely that it would cost more to replace all the drivers with the correct ones than it would to purchase a new secondhand set (not necessarily of these). But it can't hurt to put some searches out there...

 

[Tony124]

@wechsler thanks for your input; I am also thinking that it may be better to keep watching on ebay-kleinanzeigen.de till there is some good deal...

Which Canton series do you recommend for low to mid volume listening? I listen mostly vocal and classical at the night when the kids are already in bed.

btw, how can I fill in my location in my profile? I didn't find it in my profile/settings, probably because I am a new member?

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi James,

last night I spent some time cleaning the boxes and testing them.

- the distance between the mounting studs are 80mm x 60mm
- after cleaning the parts and putting them back, the problem with muddy sound on 2nd box is gone. Perhaps some cable needs re-soldering
- it seems the cabinets are not made from solid wood, but veneered (furniert)? If it's the case, would it be a problem to sand/oil it again?
- I compared the boxes with my current speakers (Magnat Vector 55, amp Technics V6X) and to be honest I was not impressed. The Magnats have more detailed sound to me, even at low volume. Maybe the reason is that the woofers/tweeters are not original?

Regards,
Tony

OK So the 2219 tweeters that I have won't work for you. There are 2 versions of the LE series. 1973-'75 and 1975-78. I'm guessing that you have the second version. You can tell by the depth of the cabinet. 1st version = 180mm and 2nd version = 200mm. The height and width are the same, 385 x 215mm. 2nd version would have crossover points of 750hz/2600hz, first version 900/4500hz.

It's no surprise that they don't sound good with only the mids being original. Lets wait to see what Canton says. If they still have the schematics then we can see exactly what the correct drivers are. With a little patience we can find what you need on ebay for a reasonable price. But I tend to avoid kleinanzeigen because you don't have any protection at all.

My LE 600's are 2nd version and have walnut veneer over particle board. I don't think that Canton started using MDF until 1979/80 with the GLE and Quinto series. The veneer is plenty thick enough to sand down as long as you don't get carried away. I start with 120 grit and hand sand with a block until I just get through the old lacquer and then finish with 240 grit and fingertips.

Look up in the header bar on the right where you can see your member name. in the drop down menu select "Personal Details". You can set your location there.

Cheers,
James

edit: Comparable Canton 3-way's with a 6.5" woofer from the early '80s would be the Quinto 510 and GLE 50. The Karat 100 is almost identical to the Quinto 510, also a nice small 3-way. Going up to a Quinto 520 or GLE 60 or Karat 200 would give you an 8" woofer. They are all very nice sounding speakers.

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Looking at your photos again the front and back are particle board. I find it interesting that I've seen a number of Cantons from that era where you can see that both surfaces of the sides are veneered. Like it was cheaper for them to just have large amounts of double veneered panels made that they cut and then chose the best side to use or something. My LE 600's are the same way.

Cheers,
James

 

[Old Guy8]

These are Karat 200's that I sanded and Watco Natural Oiled. 17" tall with 8" woofs. They have brown metal grills. Sound nice. Another Canton fan.

 

[Tony124]

edit: Comparable Canton 3-way's with a 6.5" woofer from the early '80s would be the Quinto 510 and GLE 50. The Karat 100 is almost identical to the Quinto 510, also a nice small 3-way. Going up to a Quinto 520 or GLE 60 or Karat 200 would give you an 8" woofer. They are all very nice sounding speakers.

Hi James,

can you please shed some light briefly on the more common Canton series ? On ebay-kleinanzeigen.de I see quite often these series:
- LE
- GLE
- Karat
- Quinto
- Fonum
- Ergo
- Chrono

Regards,
Tony

 

[Bratwurst7s]

As best as I can...

Chrono, I don't really know anything about this series.

Fonum: Budget line started in about the mid '80s. The only time that I had a Fonum in my hand was a small bookshelf model about the size of a Quinto 510/Karat 100 but it was much lighter. Rapping on the cabinet with my knuckles it sounded more hollow that a Quinto and I'm believing that the cabinet walls are thinner. I put it down and left it there. But to be fair I've heard some good comments about their sound from other AK members.

LE: one of the very first Canton lines and the top one for their time. Well regarded, there are a couple of other AK members that have them, Autobahn comes to mind and I believe that he lives somewhere up in your direction. Lol, I still haven't heard my 600's in restored condition but I should finally have them done sometime in the next few months. The LE line is fairly broad, from small 2-way to the 900 with a 12" woofer.

GLE: Mainstream line that ran from about '79-80. Replaced by the Quinto line and use many of the same drivers. While I haven't personally heard any of these I believe that the GLE 50 or 60 might be a good fit for you. I'm guessing that in good working condition they won't disappoint. There is a 2nd, later (more "modern") GLE line that I have no experience with.

GL: Small 2-way, I have a couple pairs of the GL 260 and they are amazing speakers for their size. Time frame ca 1981-'85.

Quinto: Replaced the 1st GLE line, 1981-'85. I've heard all 4 of them and own the 510 and 520. I like these speakers a lot. They image well and sound sweet and clean. I use the 510's near field in my playroom and the 520's as rears in my HT system. The 520's will make a very decent small living room speaker and might be a very good choice for you of you don't restore your LE's.

Karat: there are quite a number of distinct generations of the Karat. The 100, 200 and 300 were the replacements for the Quinto series 1986-'87. (The big Quinto 540 was more or less replaced with the CT 800). I've only heard the 100 and 200 (of this first series) and they are great speakers. Call this 1st gen Karat a "product improved Quinto". Slightly larger cabs and different crossover points. The Karat 20/30/40/60 (1987-'90) are of the era where Canton made the big switch from 19mm soft dome tweeters to 25mm aluminum/magnesium domes. I haven't personally listened to any Canton newer than these.

Ergo: TOTL along with the Reference. I haven't heard any of these. I can't imagine that I would be disappointed with any of them.

CT: An interesting line, but if you are wanting to stay with a small bookshelf they might be too large for you. The 800 & 1000 are large bookshelf speakers, the 70/80/90/100/120 are all bass reflex floor standers. As best as I can tell these were TOTL before the Ergo, ca 1987(?) to early '90s. I'm strongly considering finding a pair of CT 800 for myself.

Depending on how good your German is you can look around in HiFi Wiki for a good overview of the Canton lines (and a lot more).
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Lautsprecher

Cheers,
James

 

[Tony124]

many thanks James, fantastic answer!

 

[Tony124]

Hi James,

empowered with the info from your great answer, I did some more searching...

The Canton LE 400 are available for 40 EUR, therefore I think it is not worthwhile to restore mine. However from your comments I would like to learn more before making the decision. Now I am focusing on the Quinto 510/520. How do they compare to LE 400/600, and the Karat 100/200/300? It seems they would be a good choice for me: low to mid volume listening, clean, detailed sound.

Another newbie question: are the bigger speakers not suitable for low/mid volume?

Regards,
Tony

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hey Tony,

Yeah, by the time that you find both tweeters and woofers you can most likely just buy some other complete speakers and save the work for a similar cost. Considering what you paid you could resell or part them out and more than get your money back.

From my POV larger speakers are definitely useful for low/mid volume listening. I was just making guesses based on a similar size to the LE 400. Personally, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a 8" 3-way for living room duty. It mostly depends on your room size, space for speakers, Wife Acceptance Factor etc. Also amp power plays a big factor. Cantons in the era up to the early '90s are fairly efficient, they don't have to have high power amps powering them, but the do respond nicely in SQ when driven by an amp with reserves (something like 20% more than the nominal speaker RMS rating).

If you are space constrained but want something a bit larger than the LE 400 then LE 500/GLE 50/Quinto 520/Karat 200/Karat 40 would all be good choices in a 8" woofer range and have similar sensitivity. The Karat 200 cab is a little larger than the Quinto's and is a great all-rounder, but the 520 is a nice speaker. If you have the room then Imho it pays in overall SQ to go with a 10" woofer.

I reconditioned a pair of Quinto 530's for a friend a while back, they are actually only a little larger than the Karat 200 and sounded very nice. I haven't heard the Karat 40 but I like my 60's a lot and have no reason to think that the 40's won't sound good.

Another consideration is speaker connections. The LE's have permanant direct speaker wires coming out of the back. The Quinto's have spring connectors that are a bit limiting in speaker wire sizes, something around 2.5mm² max. The 1st version Karat 100/200/300's also have spring connectors but they are a bit larger opening, allowing up to 4mm wire. The 2nd version have real binding posts, although they are a bit fragile. If you plan on adding/upgrading binding posts then none of that matters but it's something to consider.

Cheers,
James