Cartridge break in period ... a question?

[Balifly]

The diamond undergoes abrasion?

From what?

Mostly dust particles.

 

[Balifly]

Edit: I have nothing nice to say so I'll say nothing at all.

No need to comment on something you do not believe.

I have read about that view before.

 

[reydelaplaya]

You... Don't understand how hardness works.

Hardness is only one factor. Here is a great explanation from a reputable cartridge/stylus maker - Shure:

http://www.shure.com/americas/support/find-an-answer/stylus-wear-and-record-wear

Dust was mentioned among the factors contributing to excessive record and stylus wear. Dust and grit in the record grooves were found to be the primary cause of exceptional wear found in the tested styli. These findings led to an additional series of tests on styli to determine to what extent dirt and grit lodged in the record grooves affected record and stylus life. Brand new records were used to create wear on one group of styli. A second group was worn with used records. A third group of styli were then worn with clean used records, and a fourth group with used records which had not been cleaned.

Tests showed that both airborne dust and debris worn from the stylus tip itself are the greatest cause of excessive record and stylus wear. Complete removal of dust and grit from the record grooves resulted in increases of up to 60% in the useful life of both records and styli.

 

[Punk_oldie]

Thread a few days old I know, but here's an interesting take on break-in from Soundsmith (someone you'd definitely consider something of an expert in this area):
"This is an interesting subject, especially when compared to MC and MM designs. Folklore has it that during break-in one experiences a change in sound as a result of a “softening” of the suspension components and a “burnishing” of the diamond. While these are true to a very small degree, it is by no means what is going on. What is in fact happening is the diamond is ROTATING to conform to the record groove due to misalignment at installation. Azimuth, or clock rotation of the diamond as viewed from the front, to fit the groove.

One of the flaws of MC designs is a single point - central wire suspension which allows the voltage generating armature at the back of the cantilever to rotate. This is both bad and good. Good because it allows the cartridge to acquire correct azimuth over time after poor azimuth installation OR poor diamond alignment at the time of manufacture. Bad, because it is a common weak point for MC designs. Improper anti-skating will rotate the diamond azimuth out of position, sometimes in a very few number of hours of use, resulting in poor performance due to improper seating of the diamond in the groove. One good accident will also result in the same - or permanent destruction of the cartridge.

It is one of the many, many reasons Soundsmith does not make MC cartridges. Our fixed coil designs have a tiny moving iron element which is bonded and suspended over most of its surface and CANNOT ROTATE out of position. This makes Soundsmith FC designs far more durable than MC designs, and almost impossible to have them go out of alignment due to skating forces, or the eventual accidental mishandling. From a “Break-in” standpoint, it means that once you align it correctly at installation, it will not rotate out of alignment over the life of the cartridge.

The result? Far, far less break-in time required, and a far more durable design over the long term."

Here's the full article: https://www.sound-smith.com/break-periods-soundsmith-cartridges

 

[UncleBingo]

Thread a few days old I know, but here's an interesting take on break-in from Soundsmith (someone you'd definitely consider something of an expert in this area):
"This is an interesting subject, especially when compared to MC and MM designs. Folklore has it that during break-in one experiences a change in sound as a result of a “softening” of the suspension components and a “burnishing” of the diamond. While these are true to a very small degree, it is by no means what is going on. What is in fact happening is the diamond is ROTATING to conform to the record groove due to misalignment at installation. Azimuth, or clock rotation of the diamond as viewed from the front, to fit the groove.

One of the flaws of MC designs is a single point - central wire suspension which allows the voltage generating armature at the back of the cantilever to rotate. This is both bad and good. Good because it allows the cartridge to acquire correct azimuth over time after poor azimuth installation OR poor diamond alignment at the time of manufacture. Bad, because it is a common weak point for MC designs. Improper anti-skating will rotate the diamond azimuth out of position, sometimes in a very few number of hours of use, resulting in poor performance due to improper seating of the diamond in the groove. One good accident will also result in the same - or permanent destruction of the cartridge.

It is one of the many, many reasons Soundsmith does not make MC cartridges. Our fixed coil designs have a tiny moving iron element which is bonded and suspended over most of its surface and CANNOT ROTATE out of position. This makes Soundsmith FC designs far more durable than MC designs, and almost impossible to have them go out of alignment due to skating forces, or the eventual accidental mishandling. From a “Break-in” standpoint, it means that once you align it correctly at installation, it will not rotate out of alignment over the life of the cartridge.

The result? Far, far less break-in time required, and a far more durable design over the long term."

Here's the full article: https://www.sound-smith.com/break-periods-soundsmith-cartridges

That is rather hard to believe. Every other manufacturer's styli are loose enough to rotate, yet they some how magically align themselves after X number of hours, and then stay that way until they're worn out?

 

[Pio1980]

Thread a few days old I know, but here's an interesting take on break-in from Soundsmith (someone you'd definitely consider something of an expert in this area):
"This is an interesting subject, especially when compared to MC and MM designs. Folklore has it that during break-in one experiences a change in sound as a result of a “softening” of the suspension components and a “burnishing” of the diamond. While these are true to a very small degree, it is by no means what is going on. What is in fact happening is the diamond is ROTATING to conform to the record groove due to misalignment at installation. Azimuth, or clock rotation of the diamond as viewed from the front, to fit the groove.

One of the flaws of MC designs is a single point - central wire suspension which allows the voltage generating armature at the back of the cantilever to rotate. This is both bad and good. Good because it allows the cartridge to acquire correct azimuth over time after poor azimuth installation OR poor diamond alignment at the time of manufacture. Bad, because it is a common weak point for MC designs. Improper anti-skating will rotate the diamond azimuth out of position, sometimes in a very few number of hours of use, resulting in poor performance due to improper seating of the diamond in the groove. One good accident will also result in the same - or permanent destruction of the cartridge.

It is one of the many, many reasons Soundsmith does not make MC cartridges. Our fixed coil designs have a tiny moving iron element which is bonded and suspended over most of its surface and CANNOT ROTATE out of position. This makes Soundsmith FC designs far more durable than MC designs, and almost impossible to have them go out of alignment due to skating forces, or the eventual accidental mishandling. From a “Break-in” standpoint, it means that once you align it correctly at installation, it will not rotate out of alignment over the life of the cartridge.

The result? Far, far less break-in time required, and a far more durable design over the long term."

Here's the full article: https://www.sound-smith.com/break-periods-soundsmith-cartridges

Interesting plot complication I had notbeen considered, tho it doesn't necessarily negate suspension conditioning.

 

[Mellotronix]

Just set up first turntable. Acquired Nakaoka MP 110 cartridge with headshell and read about long break in period ... maybe 100 hours. Is it the stylist or cartridge that actually undergoes this process or both?
I would maybe like two “needles” to switch for used records or new records but am wondering about this break in variable.
Thanks

Congrats on the Nagaoka 110. I think it's probably a great tracker that sounds terrific, but I haven't heard one in person.

You may be overthinking the whole issue. Your cartridge has some parts that are rigid like the stylus and cantilever along with parts that are soft like the rubber pivot. The rigid and soft parts interact as the needle rides the record's groove to move a magnet between electrical coils which creates a small electrical current. This current is sent on its way to a preamp and power amp where it gets amplified.

Since the rigid and soft parts interact with each other, they need to break in and get used to each other, like a new baseball glove and a baseball. Also, the coils will undergo some physical changes as they are exposed to the magnet moving back and forth, up and down. The stylus and cantilever shouldn't wear down or change shape much at all during the break in period. That's gonna take a few thousand hours. But they will settle into a comfortable interaction with the soft parts that facilitate their movement if you have your turntable set up reasonably well. Don't worry about how long it takes. Just listen and enjoy. It's gonna sound great no matter what!

Dirty records aren't necessarily going to harm the stylus in the short run, although you don't want that debris working its way into the magnets or the soft parts. Dirt will, however, harm your vinyl records as the diamond stylus drags it though the grooves.

There should not be a need for an additional stylus except for the fact that the cantilever is the most vulnerable part of most cartridges. If something is gonna break, it's usually the cantilever, and it happens in ways that only God himself can keep track of. So, it's not a bad idea to keep a spare stylus, or better yet--cartridge--on hand. I always have a cheaper backup cartridge just in case something goes horribly wrong with my beloved Grado Statement Master 2. And it will. Experience tells me that about every two years I do something stupid like send the armwand flying across an unforgiving turntable mat or I get the edge of a dust rag hooked on the diamond tip and snap the cantilever into two pieces.

When it happens to you, just curse really loud for a few minutes and then take the opportunity to enjoy hearing a different cartridge on your turntable for awhile until you replace your Nagaoka 110 for a 150.

You see, experience also tells me that when you break your cantilever, it's time for an upgrade. I mean, who wants to buy the same old thing again? We're audio idiots who need constant upgrading in order to fill the inadequacies in other areas of our lives.

 

[Dmitry]

Yeah, I agree. When I do the math I figured 148 record plays is about 50 hours. My Cart may have improved even after that, but that is when I stopped counting. I noticed the same thing with my new Hana. About 50 hours until you know what you have.

Using this logic, once your cartridge “breaks in” after 50 hours, it starts to break down. So enjoy that one awesome side.

 

[cafe latte]

It is not just the suspension that breaks in. If you look at a new stylus tip under a microscope and a lightly used one the lightly used one you can se contact surfaces polished. These are now super smooth ulike on the new unused stylus so the broken in tip will wear records less and sound different too.
Chris

 

[Thunderbox]

Thread a few days old I know, but here's an interesting take on break-in from Soundsmith (someone you'd definitely consider something of an expert in this area):
"This is an interesting subject, especially when compared to MC and MM designs. Folklore has it that during break-in one experiences a change in sound as a result of a “softening” of the suspension components and a “burnishing” of the diamond. While these are true to a very small degree, it is by no means what is going on. What is in fact happening is the diamond is ROTATING to conform to the record groove due to misalignment at installation. Azimuth, or clock rotation of the diamond as viewed from the front, to fit the groove.

One of the flaws of MC designs is a single point - central wire suspension which allows the voltage generating armature at the back of the cantilever to rotate. This is both bad and good. Good because it allows the cartridge to acquire correct azimuth over time after poor azimuth installation OR poor diamond alignment at the time of manufacture. Bad, because it is a common weak point for MC designs. Improper anti-skating will rotate the diamond azimuth out of position, sometimes in a very few number of hours of use, resulting in poor performance due to improper seating of the diamond in the groove. One good accident will also result in the same - or permanent destruction of the cartridge.

It is one of the many, many reasons Soundsmith does not make MC cartridges. Our fixed coil designs have a tiny moving iron element which is bonded and suspended over most of its surface and CANNOT ROTATE out of position. This makes Soundsmith FC designs far more durable than MC designs, and almost impossible to have them go out of alignment due to skating forces, or the eventual accidental mishandling. From a “Break-in” standpoint, it means that once you align it correctly at installation, it will not rotate out of alignment over the life of the cartridge.

The result? Far, far less break-in time required, and a far more durable design over the long term."

Here's the full article: https://www.sound-smith.com/break-periods-soundsmith-cartridges

This is Hogwash or Malarkey probably both.

 

[Mellotronix]

It is not just the suspension that breaks in. If you look at a new stylus tip under a microscope and a lightly used one the lightly used one you can se contact surfaces polished. These are now super smooth ulike on the new unused stylus so the broken in tip will wear records less and sound different too.
Chris

Yes it does. Absolutely. It travels something like ,5 miles on each side of an LP. But, if your records are clean, it's gonna take a lot more time than what we think of as the typical break-in period (20-50 hours) before it begins to show signs of wear. And (I'm guessing here) the suspension system and coils are likely degrade long before the stylus for most AK forum members. The coils will collect dust which works its way into the gaps between the windings. The rubber suspension system will dry up and break down rather quickly compared with the diamond.

Most importantly, most of us on this forum will begin to covet a new cartridge because that's what this hobby does to your thinking. "Hmm. That Lyra got Stereophile's A+ recommendation five years in a row and I happen to have $15,000 hidden under my mattress. What a great investment!" Or, in my case, "Wow. Love the sound of this Grado Sonata! The Master is gonna sound even better because..." I've forgotten how I justified that one, but it seemed reasonable at the time.

 

[JP]

It is not just the suspension that breaks in. If you look at a new stylus tip under a microscope and a lightly used one the lightly used one you can se contact surfaces polished. These are now super smooth ulike on the new unused stylus so the broken in tip will wear records less and sound different too.
Chris

A decent new one is highly polished as well. As worn the contact patches are flattened which makes them reflect light in the same plane only making it look more polished. New they’re radiused so they scatter light.

 

[Nat]

One part of the system that gets broken in is your ears. You get used to how things sound, and start to be able to ignore certain aspects of the sound, which also allows you to concentrate on other aspects of the sound. You also start to be able to identify aspects of the sound that might have been confusing you. I'm not saying this to discount the actual mechanical break in process, the explanations for which are believable. But the two go together.
There is a lot of flimflam out there, and some of the break in stuff is clearly in that category - well designed electronics, for example ought to stabilize quite quickly, since that is a basic design criterion. Often it's used as an excuse, to confuse anyone who doesn't love a component. But mechanical systems do need break in, and this isn't some new audiophile golden ear thing. I remember the manual for EPI 100s back in 1974 or 5 specifying that the speakers should be broken in by playing for a day or so before evaluating the sound.

 

[Mellotronix]

One part of the system that gets broken in is your ears. You get used to how things sound, and start to be able to ignore certain aspects of the sound, which also allows you to concentrate on other aspects of the sound. You also start to be able to identify aspects of the sound that might have been confusing you. I'm not saying this to discount the actual mechanical break in process, the explanations for which are believable. But the two go together.
There is a lot of flimflam out there, and some of the break in stuff is clearly in that category - well designed electronics, for example ought to stabilize quite quickly, since that is a basic design criterion. Often it's used as an excuse, to confuse anyone who doesn't love a component. But mechanical systems do need break in, and this isn't some new audiophile golden ear thing. I remember the manual for EPI 100s back in 1974 or 5 specifying that the speakers should be broken in by playing for a day or so before evaluating the sound.

Love your insights. I mentioned in one of my bloated posts how our ears are one of the uncontrollable variables when it comes to setting up audio systems. Our perception of hearing changes all the time and we do tend to adapt to the acoustic environment. That's probably why all of us need to have at least two or three different systems in our homes

On another topic--EPI 100's? Got four of 'em in my basement. Epicure Products Inc? Boston? If memory serves. My girlfriend bought two for her appt. and I then followed suit. She became my wife of many years now so we have four. Maybe I'll pull 'em out and fire 'em up for old times' sake.

 

[Nat]

Newburyport MA. EPI is no longer there, but there is a microbrewery that is excellent. I forget their name, but their Green Head IPA is very sound. It is only fitfully distributed in Connecticut, but when I am in New Hampshire, I pick it up.

 

[Pio1980]

http://www.humanspeakers.com/o/burhoe.htm

 

[Decibel_116]

Newburyport MA. EPI is no longer there, but there is a microbrewery that is excellent. I forget their name, but their Green Head IPA is very sound. It is only fitfully distributed in Connecticut, but when I am in New Hampshire, I pick it up.

Then they need to have a special micro brew named "EPI" for the audiophiles out there having a cold one while listening....

 

[cafe latte]

A decent new one is highly polished as well. As worn the contact patches are flattened which makes them reflect light in the same plane only making it look more polished. New they’re radiused so they scatter light.

No they are not ie flat that is they are rounded just not the same as the rest of the stylus. If you look at a madnified groove the stylus tracks a very winding road constantly changing directions, the wear patch is more like a lens shape.
Re polished new stylus even the best at high magnification show roughness, many have laser etch marks fine but they are there. 50 hours later the patches are smoother for sure.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Yes it does. Absolutely. It travels something like ,5 miles on each side of an LP. But, if your records are clean, it's gonna take a lot more time than what we think of as the typical break-in period (20-50 hours) before it begins to show signs of wear. And (I'm guessing here) the suspension system and coils are likely degrade long before the stylus for most AK forum members. The coils will collect dust which works its way into the gaps between the windings. The rubber suspension system will dry up and break down rather quickly compared with the diamond.

Most importantly, most of us on this forum will begin to covet a new cartridge because that's what this hobby does to your thinking. "Hmm. That Lyra got Stereophile's A+ recommendation five years in a row and I happen to have $15,000 hidden under my mattress. What a great investment!" Or, in my case, "Wow. Love the sound of this Grado Sonata! The Master is gonna sound even better because..." I've forgotten how I justified that one, but it seemed reasonable at the time.

You can actually see wear patches for in very short periods of time, even new stylus after a week or two the contact areas are clearly visible.
Chris

 

[Mellotronix]

You can actually see wear patches for in very short periods of time, even new stylus after a week or two the contact areas are clearly visible.
Chris

Cool. I was not aware that it could occur so quickly. I know that, while diamonds are the hardest objects on earth, not all of them come in at a perfect 10 on Mohs Hardness Scale. Some are more in the range of 8 depending on their quality.