CD PCM sounds better than compressed FLAC.

[Lossless]

This debate is probably as old as vinyl, but anyway; I have started ripping my CDs to FLAC lossless via Foobar2000, but find that the original PCM (pulse code modulation) CD version sounds slightly better than the compressed FLAC file when played through PC. The orignial CD sound seems to be more 3D with better instrument separation.

My PC: ACER Aspire Windows 8, dedicated HTPC,Intel quad Core i5 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, 1TB operating system only HD, 4TB SSD internal media storage, Corsair RMX series power supply ASUS Xonar Essence STX II 192/24bit sound card, Meridian Explorer2 DAC, LG Super Multi Blue Slim Blu-Ray external DVD/CD writer, Gigabit Ethernet Internet network(no Wi-Fi), FLIRC usb IR remote sensor. Asset UPnP, Foobar2000, MusicBee, TIDAL Hi-Fi

Could it be they way the PC decompresses the FLAC file? I did the same conversion using uncompressed WAV and the music dynamics were 100% identical to the CD. Any thoughts why when I thought FLAC was supposed to be lossless?

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Could it be they way the PC decompresses the FLAC file?

You mean you're hearing a difference when you play the CD via the Windows 8 built-in CD player vs ripping the CD to FLAC?

If so, you're probably hearing the difference between Windows and/or sound card settings when playing the CD vs those in use when playing a FLAC file. Even a slight difference in, say, volume level can result in a significant difference in what you hear.

 

[Chris Brown]

There is nothing about FLAC itself that would cause a difference in the way something sounds. That just isn't the type of audio compression it uses. If something went wrong with the FLAC compression you would get serious corruption, not slight reduction in dynamics. There could be settings at some level that are treating the two files/signals differently. Try different media players, etc to try to eliminate this variable. You might try decompressing a FLAC file back to a WAV file and then testing that WAV file against a source WAV file.

Don't discount placebo in these situations. It's not difficult to convince yourself that something sounds different in a case like this. Again, nothing about the type of compression FLAC uses is capable of changing the dynamics, instrument separation, etc, the same way it might occur when using lossy compression. If something is causing that to happen, it's something besides the codec.

 

[Lossless]

Try different media players, etc to try to eliminate this variable. You might try decompressing a FLAC file back to a WAV file and then testing that WAV file against a source WAV file.

Don't discount placebo in these situations. It's not difficult to convince yourself that something sounds different .

The only variables are the source, LG Blu-ray external player & SSD, and what powers each source. SSD is powered by internal computer power supply and LG Blu-ray external player is powered by a 5v iPad filtered power supply which could be the reason CDs sound better; Possibly noise from the PC’s power supply?

.
iPad 5v 2A filtered Power supply

I’m going to try ripping and playing CDs using the PC’s USB 3.0 to power external LG Blu-ray and see if that makes a difference.

It could be the “placebo” effect too or maybe I just have bionic ears. I can INSTANTLY tell when a Hi-Res streaming switches to CD quality streaming track. I wonder if that difference in sound quality is normally instantly discernible by most?

Then again I’m so OCD though that I use special double tip Q-tip cotton swabs to clean my ears prior to any listening session.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

If you're comparing an external player (CD) to your computer sound card (FLAC), you're comparing apples to oranges. They have different DACs and different analog output stages after the DAC conversion.

 

[Lossless]

If you're comparing an external player (CD) to your computer sound card (FLAC), you're comparing apples to oranges. They have different DACs and different analog output stages after the DAC conversion.

The external LG Multi Super Blue Blu-ray/DVD/CD transport has a USB digital out going to PC via USB 3.0 and has no analog output or DAC of it's own. It does have a 2MB 12 second buffer if that even matters. The LG player utilizes whichever DAC I choose; The ASUS Xonar Essences STX II or my preferred Meridian Explorer2.

 

[E-Stat]

Lossless means that the compressed file may be transcoded back to the original in bit perfect manner.

Playback quality, however, is very much dependent upon software and hardware used. Especially when employing an inherently high-latency general purpose OS like Windows as source. Which is one factor as to why I don't other than in the office.

 

[Yamaki]

So what spec are you ripping the FLAC files to? Is it from CD's and ending up as a 16/44.1 spec?

 

[DaveVoorhis]

The external LG Multi Super Blue Blu-ray/DVD/CD transport has a USB digital out going to PC via USB 3.0 and has no analog output or DAC of it's own. It does have a 2MB 12 second buffer if that even matters. The LG player utilizes whichever DAC I choose; The ASUS Xonar Essences STX II or my preferred Meridian Explorer2.

Ah.

However, it's still not clear to me what you're using to compare CD playback with FLAC playback. When you wrote "LG Blu-ray external player" in post #5, I thought you meant a player with an analog audio output.

What is the chain of gear from CD to speakers, and what is the chain of gear from FLAC to speakers, and what is the chain of gear from CD to FLAC?

 

[sqlsavior]

Using any general-purpose computer to play digital music introduces countless additional variables compared to the relatively deterministic environment of disc playback. The state of the "player" (the computer system) changes continuously. Trying to figure out cause and effect becomes largely a guessing game, often fruitless. Something as simple as the extra time required for de-compression exposes the playing process to more interruptions.

 

[Frank Sol]

There is nothing about FLAC itself that would cause a difference in the way something sounds.

Sorta like the Wave vs Flac 'debate'

High likely the OP is hearing a hardware issue NOT a file one

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Also... You've written "Acer Aspire Windows 8", by which I presume you mean it's an Acer Aspire running Windows 8 -- though I've known a few folks to describe their machine by what it had when they bought it, not what it's running now.

If you are running Windows 8, whilst it's built on essentially the same solid NT kernel as every Windows operating system from the original Windows NT onward, it is now effectively obsolete so there may be issues with drivers and applications running on Windows 8 that might be resolved on Windows 10.

 

[Lossless]

Ah.

However, it's still not clear to me what you're using to compare CD playback with FLAC playback. When you wrote "LG Blu-ray external player" in post #5, I thought you meant a player with an analog audio output.

What is the chain of gear from CD to speakers, and what is the chain of gear from FLAC to speakers, and what is the chain of gear from CD to FLAC?

The CD source chain is: LG USB 3.0 external Blu-ray player w/dedicated power supply to PC playing with bar2000 or MusicBee outputting to Meridian Explorer2 USB DAC with dedicated power supply, connected with SKW 6N Single Crystal Copper Digital Audio Coaxial Cable to AUX input of Fisher RS-Z1 playing in Source Direct mode, to B&W DM640i bi-wired with 12 feet 4 conductor solid copper 16 gauge speaker wire.

The internal SSD(solid state drive)/FLAC source chain is the same except the SSD is powered by computer's Corsair RMX series power supply.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

The CD source chain is: LG USB 3.0 external Blu-ray player to PC playing with bar2000 or MusicBee outputting to Meridian Explorer2 USB DAC with dedicated power supply, connected with SKW 6N Single Crystal Copper Digital Audio Coaxial Cable to AUX input of Fisher RS-Z1 playing in Source Direct mode, to B&W DM640i bi-wired with 12 feet 4 conductor solid copper 16 gauge speaker wire.

The SSD(solid state drive)/FLAC source chain is the same except the SSD is powered by computer's Corsair RMX series power supply.

How does the Blu-Ray transport appear to the PC? As a drive?

Per post #4, I'd suggest trying a double-blind test to verify that there is a genuine acoustic difference.

 

[Lossless]

Also... You've written "Acer Aspire Windows 8", by which I presume you mean it's an Acer Aspire running Windows 8 -- though I've known a few folks to describe their machine by what it had when they bought it, not what it's running now.

If you are running Windows 8, whilst it's built on essentially the same solid NT kernel as every Windows operating system from the original Windows NT onward, it is now effectively obsolete so there may be issues with drivers and applications running on Windows 8 that might be resolved on Windows 10.

My dedicated audio/streaming PC is running factory Windows 8.1.

I had a similar Acer Aspire with 500gb drive with an Intel Core i3 that I had updated to Windows 10 when Microsoft was offering the free "upgrade". That Windows 10 PC then started experiencing very SLOW performance, constantly crashing and is now dead like my iPhone 6s (planned obsolescence). Cortana assistant/big brother is no longer waking my PC out of the blue for a required “update”; While my factory Window's 8.1 dedicated media PC has been running smoothly without a single crash or issue.

Never again will I update any of my PCs to Windows 10 unless absolutely necessary. If it ain't broke...

My Dell Latitude E5530 i7 laptop is a Windows 7 machine, which I LOVE, and NEVER experience any hardware or software issues.

 

[Lossless]

How does the Blu-Ray transport appear to the PC? As a drive?

Per post #4, I'd suggest trying a double-blind test to verify that there is a genuine acoustic difference.

The LG Blu-ray player/DVD writer shows up dependent upon what Is loaded in it DVD/CD/Blu-Ray.

Blind test were my thought's exactly.

 

[Chris Brown]

It could be the “placebo” effect too or maybe I just have bionic ears. I can INSTANTLY tell when a Hi-Res streaming switches to CD quality streaming track. I wonder if that difference in sound quality is normally instantly discernible by most?

Then again I’m so OCD though that I use special double tip Q-tip cotton swabs to clean my ears prior to any listening session.

So the mere suggestion on my part that it may have been placebo immediately caused you to get defensive and come up with all kinds of examples of how amazing you think your hearing is? No offense but that is a surefire sign of someone who is taken frequently by placebo in the audio world, because all it takes for placebo to win is for them to "believe" that what they are hearing is legitimate (even if it's not). To get defensive rather than even acknowledge the possibility is, obviously, not a good sign. I'm not saying that your hearing isn't amazing, it may be.

I feel like you have way too many variables going on here. Having an external player hooked to a PC is still a very unconventional arrangement when it comes to playing music on a PC and on it's own introduces tons of variables. You should probably get down to comparing just one thing at a time first before you can make an honest comparison. If you're trying to compare FLAC vs PCM, then do it using a FLAC file compared to an uncompressed WAV file on your PC rather than anything having to do with your external player. If you're trying to compare your external player to files on your PC then compare it to WAV files so you're no longer wondering where FLAC comes into the picture. One problem when you have too many variables at once is that it makes direct comparisons impossible. You might think something sounds better, when it actually just sounds different because of an unrelated variable as a result of the unfair comparison.

 

[Lossless]

So the mere suggestion on my part that it may have been placebo immediately caused you to get defensive and come up with all kinds of examples of how amazing you think your hearing is? No offense but that is a surefire sign of someone who is taken frequently by placebo in the audio world, because all it takes for placebo to win is for them to "believe" that what they are hearing is legitimate (even if it's not). I'm not saying that your hearing isn't amazing, it may be.

I feel like you have way too many variables going on here. Having an external player hooked to a PC is still a very unconventional arrangement when it comes to playing music on a PC and on it's own introduces tons of variables. You should probably get down to comparing just one thing at a time first before you can make an honest comparison. If you're trying to compare FLAC vs PCM, then do it using a FLAC file compared to an uncompressed WAV file on your PC rather than anything having to do with your external player. If you're trying to compare your external player to files on your PC then compare it to WAV files so you're no longer wondering where FLAC comes into the picture. One problem when you have too many variables at once is that it makes direct comparisons impossible. You might think something sounds better, when it actually just sounds different because of an unrelated variable as a result of the unfair comparison.

No, please don’t think I was getting “defensive”. I have done the FLAC/WAV file comparison and maybe it was the placebo effect. I’m going to have my girlfriend switch back and forth to see if I can blindly differentiate the two. How exciting for her.

 

[orsen]

using foobar creates all kinds of possible changes
theres a gazilion settings and plugins that can change the sound

 

[Lossless]

I’m thoroughly convinced uncompressed PCM sounds better than compressed FLAC. I hear the difference no matter what I use to rip CDs.

The only variable is the CD/Blu-Ray transport and SSD. The tracks are played through the same Meridian Explorer2 USB DAC with isolated USB Lithium Polymer USB 3.0 battery. The SSD and CD/Blu-ray transport share the same Corsair RMX series power supply.

In my listening of CD PCM vs lossless FLAC, the FLAC version the dynamics are lost, the bass is not as tight, and all around music presence seemed diminished. The music sounds flat. The sound is what could be compared to jitter. I really feel the FLAC compression takes from the original uncompressed PCM file. FLAC being "lossless" is BS!