CLEANING VINYL - The AK compendium of fact, fiction and collective wisdom

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by onwardjames, Dec 31, 2014.

?

Have you ever used glue to clean a record?

  1. Yes

    141 vote(s)
    22.7%
  2. No

    479 vote(s)
    77.3%
  1. Old Guy8

    Old Guy8 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,164
    Location:
    Rockford, Illinois
    IMO, making up my own DIY cleaning solution is a lot of trouble when I can buy at reasonable price. I asume they have chemist's with more experience than I. That is why I just picked out the Spin Clean fluid and dilute to thier spec.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  2. Djcoolray

    Djcoolray Super Member

    Messages:
    4,635
    Location:
    A rocks throw from JBLM !!!!
    Ok...

    Since liquid Joy or Ajax has no sulphates and is completely biodegradable which means zero residue to impact the recorded surface, what conditions may prove problematic ??? Wouldn't the interaction between the material and the solution depend on the amount of solution used over time ??? Then of course the properly mixed solution with trace elements of isopropyl alcohol and distilled water be neutral not impacting the vinyl in anyway and is the oldest proven method of cleaning vinyl. I haven't had a problem with any kind of static charge since my turntable is double grounded, one ground to the amplication source, with the amplication source which is grounded and a second ground from the TT to an unused wall socket. Whenever a person has a device made from a hard material and slides it upon a polished surface of a completely different material at a high rate of speed per second there is going to be a created static charge. That's why grounding equipment is so terribly important Old Chap. Then depending on the design of the TT motor or how well the TT motor is grounded you may even get more static since the stylus acts like a ground leading to the amp. A belt driven TT has less of an amount of static coming from its motor do to better motor isolation of using a belt reducing direct contact in ways not possible for a direct-drive TT. But again, that's why we ground the hell out of equipment. There are allot of funny ideas being past off as reality....
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  3. phantomrebel

    phantomrebel AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Sorry, I'm completely missing your point. The PVA-PVC matrix is an insulator. Static charge on the record surface has nothing to do with turntable grounding. It has everything to do on how the record is handled. Furthermore, biodegradability has nothing to do with residue left behind. It merely defines a substance that can be degraded in the environment (e.g. enzymatic digestion by microorganisms). Time is not a real factor...put oil on your hand and tell me how long it takes to coat the skin. Detergents by their vary nature (containing long aliphatic chains) form a molecular layer on surfaces that remains even after washing with water (or most hydrophilic solvents). This can be beneficial as it can provide lubrication. It can detrimental if it carries a charge (increasing susceptibility to static buildup). These phenomena are unrelated to turntable grounding.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  4. Djcoolray

    Djcoolray Super Member

    Messages:
    4,635
    Location:
    A rocks throw from JBLM !!!!
    No....

    I'm saying that you are purporting a fallacy by saying that all biodegradable liquids won't rinse completely clean when generations of audiophiles have done so !!! There are many such detergents that fall applicably true to that assumption which is narrow by definition. There is one such liquid that is organic, has no solvents, no sulphates and leaves no residues and mothers with severely allergic children use this soap. It's presumptuous of you to think that any substance that shares a significant resemblance to another must be the same,
     
  5. phantomrebel

    phantomrebel AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Um, Olive oil is biodegradable but it doesn't wash away as you describe. I could list 1,000,000 examples but it is pointless.
    Detergents are all similar and work the same way, having a polar head and non-polar tail. They form micelles to help solubilize a wide range of compounds. In this respect, they are solvents of a certain kind. Some are salts and can leave residues. I'm unclear what you are talking about but want to understand. What "one such" detergent are you referring to?
     
  6. Djcoolray

    Djcoolray Super Member

    Messages:
    4,635
    Location:
    A rocks throw from JBLM !!!!
    You said it, some are salts that leave residue but not all...
     
  7. onwardjames

    onwardjames Hoardimus Maximus Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,883
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Good info from both phantomrebel and Djcoolray.

    Can we relate this to the cleaning of records please? I've sorta let this trail go cold of late.

    This may sound like blasphemy, but this has been my quickie but damned effective method of recent (even after reading some long-winded missives how it is awful for my records)

    I cover the labels with dent pullers, spritz with tap water and 409. It sits for 30 seconds or so.

    Then I scrub with a Dawn-coated paint pad, re-rinse with tap water, immediately econowand-vac, then re-rinse in a spin clean filled with distilled water, with a re-vac, and the results are stunning.

    I got 60 bucks in my cleaning stand (shop-vac + econowand and old broken tt) and I can't imagine getting these much cleaner, and they sound amazing
    .

    I'm reading on other sites how various methods are not effective because of this and that (glue peels don't work as they don't get deep into the grooves.....don't know if that is actually true, but glue sure seems to save these 1 dollar finds) and how 409 can cause damage....

    If it's a 1 dollar find with some mild surface damage and rice crispies, I figure why not? My records' lifespan isn't infinite, and neither am I.
     
    Natitude and hi*ball like this.
  8. phantomrebel

    phantomrebel AK Subscriber Subscriber

    If you are using the "409 cleaner, degreaser, disinfectant" then you have simply found what I have been saying all along. Look at the ingredients: (https://www.thecloroxcompany.com/do...9cleanerdegreaserdisinfectantjw2014-08-09.pdf)
    It is a mixture of non-ionic detergent and a quat.
    It's a little basic in pH, but you are diluting it down. You could do better with Clorox's "Pro Quat All-Purpose Disinfectant Cleaner" which contains far more quats along with EDTA and ethanol (https://www.thecloroxcompany.com/do...l-purposedisinfectantcleaner1jw2014-11-30.pdf)
    The only issue I have is with your Dawn (anionic detergent), but it would be OK if you reversed the order: do Dawn first, then follow with diluted 409. This would be analogous to hair washing: anionic detergent "shampoo" followed by quat rinse "conditioner", leaving your records with an antistat rather than a charged coating.
    So, perhaps without knowing it, you stumbled on a household product that actually has useful properties and using it is not blasphemous as it is backed by science!
    Now, if you are instead talking about the "409 Glass and surface cleaner" or "409 Heavy duty degreaser", these contain ethanolamine and are not very useful. Look for the "409 cleaner, degreaser, disinfectant". The name 409 is a brand owned by Chlorox, it has no longer has anything to do with a specific formula.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
    Natitude, onwardjames and DaverJ like this.
  9. onwardjames

    onwardjames Hoardimus Maximus Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,883
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Hello, phantomrebel, and thank you!

    Okay, I'll switch them around. Yes, I'm just using the basic 409 cleaner, and it blew me away how good it seemed to work.

    Experimenting today with SpinClean using their cleaner fluid and about 5 to 10 drops of 10 to 1 tergitol, then a heavy rinse. First record, George Strait's very well recorded "Something Special" came out almost noise-free. I mean.....nothing. Sounds amazing. Of course between two dunks and many rotations in the SpinClean, I shop-vac with Econowand (or if you have something else, homemade or whatever) and then the rinse.

    Working fine.
     
  10. Old Guy8

    Old Guy8 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,164
    Location:
    Rockford, Illinois
    I added a Spin Clean as the first step of my record cleaning. Had been entirely cleaning on old turntable with brushes and vacuuming with homemade nozzle. It took a half hour per record. Did not make much progress cleaning record backlog.
    Recently bought Spin Clean to speed up process. Cleaning both sides at once helps. Then I do distilled rinse and vac eack side on
    turntable. Set in dish drainer to dry few hours.
    I use Mofi plastic liners after cleaning. No afiliation. Like this brand. Don't put back in dusty liner. Help identify which ones have been cleaned.
    Spin Clean has taken time down a little to 15-20 minutes. And don't have as much vacumn noise time. Still not very fast.
    This is s great thread!!
    edit: Bought an Econowand. No afiliation. Have yet to try it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  11. onwardjames

    onwardjames Hoardimus Maximus Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,883
    Location:
    Kentucky
  12. ETLS

    ETLS metacarpophalangealcranium Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,788
    Location:
    Texas
    Eliminates backlog, while eliminating the need to stand for hours cleaning records.


    IMG_20161123_205319.jpg
     
  13. onwardjames

    onwardjames Hoardimus Maximus Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,883
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Could you post about the cleaner in the pic? Where did you get it? Cost? The assembly holding the records - homemade?
     
  14. Johnno_Oz

    Johnno_Oz AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,594
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    I use this Australian made product- record revirginizer, works like a charm! It's like the PVA method but it's clear and anti-static (or so they say). Brought back a mildewy copy of Queen stored into the tropics back to new. Still coming to terms with it and not trying to not waste too much but enough.to cover the album entirely.

    http://recordrevirginizer.com/

    [​IMG]

    No agents in the USA as yet, so here's a chance for someone. I have no affiliation, bought some from my local hi-fi store after the guy who owns the shop recommended it to me.
     
  15. Freds.Bands

    Freds.Bands Live Music Listener Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,478
    Location:
    near Syracuse NY
    Some of you chem. people.... what about Ivory dish liquid would be bad? Or the "Method" organic surface cleaner? Or something else common and inexpensive?
    What about using a velour or a micro-fiber cloth for a light scrubbing?

    For new records, I don't know what causes the pops but they are there, even moreso on Decca classics I have.

    I think many, not all, of these pops on exposed (used) records are caused by micro-drops of spittle from people talking as they slide on a record - every time we talk a few micro-drops of spittle are ejected, even in polite company. This debris may be cleanable by a little light scrubbing (clean fingers don't work) in a surfactant environment with a dissolved solids-free rinse and a quick lint-free dry. Comments on the above simple method?
     
  16. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

    Messages:
    14,270
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Unscented uncolored Dawn is frequently recommended as the detergent of choice when mixing one's own RCM fluid. It's what I use.
     
  17. onwardjames

    onwardjames Hoardimus Maximus Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,883
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Didn't know they offered such. I'll be hunting for that.

    As for those new record pops, my theory is either static electricity, or debris from the manufacturing process. I was leery of this awhile back, but now, brand new records get a cleaning.
     
  18. Natitude

    Natitude AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    Hampton Roads, Va
    I have yet to use it, but just picked up this dish soap the other day from my local grocery store. It's free of dyes and perfumes. I'll let y'all know how it works after I try it out. It'll probably be this weekend since they're calling for snow.....

    IMG_2053.JPG
     
  19. triggervb

    triggervb New Member

    Messages:
    49
    I just use sterile h2o (as in medical industry) and cloth wipe, for really poppy ones I hose then down with garden hose then sterile h20 clean again....works OK 4 me
     
  20. MannyE

    MannyE Exterminate! Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,962
    Location:
    Miami Beach
    onwardjames likes this.

Share This Page