Column II Internal arrangement

bp

did you try them off the floor on milk crates?

they dont look that good from the grocery store but just testing.

would be interesting to me.

i dont have all that testing equipment. and 90% goes right over my head.

i do reconize someone passionate about something. you will have them tweeked to perfection. wish i could hear them when your done.
 
bp

did you try them off the floor on milk crates?

they dont look that good from the grocery store but just testing.

would be interesting to me.

i dont have all that testing equipment. and 90% goes right over my head.

i do reconize someone passionate about something. you will have them tweeked to perfection. wish i could hear them when your done.

I haven't elevated them yet, but you can bet your bippy (Laugh In?) I will. Looking for some good end tables or nightstands that will fit the decor.

Can you measure the height of the bottom legs for me? I think I had the originals to go by when I made mine but not sure.

Just for fun, I hooked up my old La Scala AL' networks that I just recently replaced. They aren't plug and play, the tweeter is through the roof louder, but the mid and woofer are just about perfect. Since I wired my inductors inside the cabinet I had left the mid inductor connected for the test. I need to go back and disconnect it. I ended up connecting the tweeters using the original CII circuit,added some attenuation and got +- 5dB all the way to 20Khz. Not bad for basically just plugging it in. I was reflecting on just how great they were sounding, really great, when I started to smell that all too familiar aroma of electronics overheating. I inspected to find the mid resistor just about ready to melt. That's kind of where I am at now. Wondering what was causing it to heat up. But I'm going down a whole new path now with adding the AL' network components.

It really looks (and sounds) promising right now. If this works like I think it will I'll post a schematic and some more graphs and call it done.

Oh, the screws should be there Friday. I'll PM you a tracking #. I sent two types. I think the longer ones are the originals. But they both have exactly the same heads so you might be able to use the short ones for the tweeters... maybe.
 
brian

the legs are 2 inches X 11 inches x .75 inch.plus .25 for feet.
pictures below. hope they help.

notice the sides of the cabnet is twice as thick, a full 1.5 inches.

i sure u have said , refresh my memory, what are you driving them with.



still think you should try milk crates:music:, i wont say anymore i know you have a wife to deal with.
 

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brian, sounds like you are really making some progress. would love to see more graphs and a schematic.

robert, i sent you my extra bottom woofer screws as well. should be there soon. you know, my badges are not hot glued on. they do have posts anchored into the wooden grill frames. i'm wondering if that might be another production change. what are the serial numbers on your speakers?

man does not live by audio alone. i need to do a brake job on my sleeper '65 ford project (a falcon futura station wagon upgraded to shelby GT350 spec's) and i'm going to need the garage space that the IIs were occupying, so i moved them into the living room today and am giving them a trial run. i haven't nailed down exact placement yet (i'm handicapped, and moving furniture around is not my strong suit). they have totally different sound than the references, but the IIs are making me smile. the new caps have about 40 hours on them now, and are breaking in nicely. sound is getting better now that they have some hours on them, and the house is a much friendlier environment acoustically. fully expect they will continue to get better. still have some little verneer issues, but this has been a rewarding project.
 
loquatious/ greg

if you mean the numbers on the little white tags they are long gone.

if you mean the number in white ink on the magnet on the woofer that is not a part number 35143379 or the number on the cone 776903.
 
brian, sounds like you are really making some progress. would love to see more graphs and a schematic.

You know I will :)

... what are the serial numbers on your speakers?

I had the guts from 4. Serial #'s:
Had the horizontal infinity logo :3012032 3012260. Transformer mounted in cabinet. Banana plug terminals.

Had the Lazy infinity Logo: 3(?)0170680 and other had no sticker and the transformer mounted on the name plate. Crimp terminals. I couldn't make out the entire first number. Part of it was there. It looked more like it was a Capital O' than a 3. THis is the set I originally salvaged parts from.


man does not live by audio alone. i need to do a brake job on my sleeper '65 ford project (a falcon futura station wagon upgraded to shelby GT350 spec's) and i'm going to need the garage space that the IIs were occupying, so i moved them into the living room today and am giving them a trial run. i haven't nailed down exact placement yet (i'm handicapped, and moving furniture around is not my strong suit). they have totally different sound than the references, but the IIs are making me smile. the new caps have about 40 hours on them now, and are breaking in nicely. sound is getting better now that they have some hours on them, and the house is a much friendlier environment acoustically. fully expect they will continue to get better. still have some little verneer issues, but this has been a rewarding project.

You know, even with the FR not exactly where I would want it, they sounded good. They really did. And that is the bottom line. When I was listening earlier, when I had the curve nearly flat, I found myself wanting to turn the tweeters up just a bit. Might just be a factor of my age. But even if I remove the mid pot, I think I'll build in some adjustment ability for the tweeters to leave a little room for preference. Ears don't typically get better with age.

That Falcon sounds like a great project car. Let us know if you post your mechanics exploits in a different forum so we can harass you there too. :banana:
 
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I wanted to post the T-S Params for the mid. I measured with the driver in it's chamber, treating it as a sealed driver. I wasn't able to measure vas and mms, but but this should be helpful to anyone that needs it.

 
wow brian, evidence leads me to believe you had parts from an exceptionally early column II. from what i've found, all the early logo models had serial numbers that started with 3012. that would make your parts speaker 3012032 the 32nd speaker made. very early production. the other early one you had would have been the 260th speaker made. did those have the daisy-chained resistors coming off the tweeter pot, like i found on 412?

i don't do automotive forums any more due to the egos i've run into on them. audio folks seem much more tolerant, open minded, and pleasant to deal with. the falcon is a good project, but a real money pit. its a labor of love though. i feel the same way about '65 falcons as robert does about column IIs. under the skin they are the same as a '65 mustang and all the mustang goodies bolt right on. my wagon is the 9th falcon i've done, and was basically in the same condition as the column IIs you started with (2 rusty cars that had been cut apart). here are a couple pics. just so i don't get spanked for posting them here, they DO have infinity speakers (with emit tweeters) in them!
 

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greg

very nice looking falcons. the mustang parts bolt on. when ford was looking to get the mustang to market. they wanted to do it with a quickness,they looked across there invetory. the falcon had proven frames, ect. so they ended up using the falcon frame engine and all , just changed the sheet metal.personly like the earlier ones with the rocket front and round tailites,set in chrome.

i got enough veneer today to do all the edges, it is iron on. mahogny.forty feet for 25.00
it was sugested to stain with cherry stain. i actually feel prety good about this. hope to get stain tommorow well see what happens.

will post pics.
 
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thanks, robert. early round body falcons are cool but since they were marketed as economy cars, for the first 3 years only came with six cylinder engines and 4-bolt wheels. hard to hot rod those. '63 and '64 got 260 V8s as options. part of pre-mustang development, shelby was given '64 falcons to develop speed parts for mustangs. the '65 got the 289 V8. i really like those 289s. they really respond to modification. 325+ horsepower in a 2000 lb car is as much fun as 125 watts into a column II!

cherry stain on mahogany? thats an interesting combo. sounds like that might have potential. the edge verneer i was looking at from rockler was also iron-on. it was 11/16 wide, so you'd have to trim it once it was on. they said you could use a regular steam iron set at 300º (medium) to set the glue. they also said to put a piece of aluminum foil over the veneer to keep the glue from mucking up the iron.

here is a pic of how my IIs are looking right now. hard to see the veneer chips, but i know they're there.
 

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did those have the daisy-chained resistors coming off the tweeter pot, like i found on 412?

apart). here are a couple pics. just so i don't get spanked for posting them here, they DO have infinity speakers (with emit tweeters) in them!

Yes, they had the daisy chained resistors. My other pair had a single resistor.

LOL, yes, we must stay on topic. I have resorted to some creative ways of getting a post back on topic myself.
 
here is a pic of how my IIs are looking right now. hard to see the veneer chips, but i know they're there.

Those are looking SWEEEET! :thmbsp:

That one Falcon (ranchero) you have is beautiful. I can't remember ever seeing one of those and I do have a pretty good eye for cars. But I tend to be a Mopar fan. Took me forever to finally get a performance Mopar but I now have a Ram Srt-10 RC. But wouldn't you know the gas prices would triple since I got it. :(
 
speaking of shelby may he rest in peace.

he definatly left his mark on the automobile.

kinda like watkins and walsh did for infinity
 
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I'm pulling my hair out on these crossovers. Just a quick update...

I tested the woofer by itself, out of the cabinet, and it still has that dip we talked about earlier. There is just no way of getting rid of that. It was the same for the originals. Aside from that dip. I was trying to get the FR as smooth as possible from 35 to 15Khz. When doing that I have to smooth the graph quite a bit, so even though those dips appear to be gone, they are still there.

I took the mid coil out of the circuit and started all over. This time, when I hooked the drivers to the Klipsch AL' network, that flatness was not there anymore. But when adding the coil back to the AL' electrical path, no improvement. Figures. Murphy and his laws.

Anyway, I started playing with XOVER3 Pro to model what the network "should be". So I tested the woofers and mids to get the FR, T-S and impedance curves imported into the program. All that being said, XO3 wants to replace the 2.7mH with a .5mH. You may remember saying that the .5mH gave me the flattest curve when I as testing earlier. But nothing XO3 recommends is even close to what Infinity designed. When I plug the actual values used by Infinity in, the resulting curve is pretty ugly (in terms of flattness), looks similar to the one when I actually measure it. The one big difference is that in XO3 I can't get the initial level of the bass to match what it actually looks like. It is much higher than what it shows. Must have something to do with the box design. Maybe that port between the legs. That won;t affect the overall curve, where the mid crosses, but it seems I may need more time with the product to really understand if I am doing it right.

Anyway, that's where I am right now. One speaker is apart (Leaving the other in tact so I can compare sound later). Still trying to find the right combination pf parts/pieces to give the curve and sound I want. I just about gave up, thinking the original crossover sounds good enough, but I still have some drive left to experiment a little more... I believe they can sound better.

The other problem I have is the tweeters. They are so freaking efficient. I really hate to add a lot of resistance just to get them to level out. So I'm still contemplating replacing them with some Soft Dome Tweeters. Since I do use these primarily as surrounds, I'm struggling with how much additional time and money to put into these. I'm getting pressure to get the surround sound back up so they may just go back the way the were and I can try it again later after I get a better handle on XO3.
 
brian / bp sheep

Ram Srt-10 RC thats some truck u got a viper engine. that gives me two reasons to go to kansas. one to listen to your infinitys the other to ride in your truck.

dont pull your hair out, just wait a few more years and it will fall out on its own.

milk crates, o i said i would not mention them again.
 
greg

speaking about falcons i had a 67 i think 4door. i know it was a 289. cant remember but think automatic with air. it was tan named simon. bought it from a girl friend who moved to canada.
 
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I'm pulling my hair out on these crossovers.

sounds like maybe its time to step away and take a deep breath or two. its hard when you are wrapped up in a project (i know, i'm an obsessive-compulsive type and don't have anybody around to reel me in when i become too focused on one thing). you are moving forward, regardless of the pace. sometimes experimentation has to be its own reward in the short term. lack of progress is part of the process of progress. i have faith you'll nail the problem in time.

theres no deadline. its still spring, maybe take on a more outdoor oriented diversion for a few days, let the brain wind down for a while. have another go at the speaks with a fresh perspective after a break.


i have nothing against domes, but if you are considering other tweeters, how about some of the emit-R. they are plentiful on the market and are an amazing tweeter.

-------

hey robert, did infinity ever get back to you after they said they'd call you back?
 
greg

i have been so busy with the stuff being done to my home. i waited all day today for the inspector. he just left the windows failed. last week it was the roof, it failed. next is the new heating and cooling system. it is plumed so it drains in to the bird box(enclosed eves so it failed. i got a govt grant, a 5 year no intrest, forgivable loan. it has been a nightmare.

finding veneer, was unable to make it out of the house today.

the short answer is yes . she is asking a guy who is retired. he is aparently on a trip, wont be available till the middle of july.

wouldnt the use of emit r create a whole new set of crossover problems?
 
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greg

wouldnt the use of emit r create a whole new set of crossover problems?

I don't know much about the emit r's electronically. I have heard great things though.

The nice thing about the cone tweeters is there are several that I can use with minimal modification to the existing tweeter cutouts, and they are in the XOVER 3 database already. I didn't find a single piezo in the database that I could model. Nor does it have Infinity tweeters.

Anyway, here's a whatta Imma gonna do. I'm putting it back together as they were shipped.

After testing the mid I saw that it had a fairly flat response from 750Hz to 10KHz. At that point it plummets. No slope to it. That's just an FYI.

I was able to get a flatter FR overall by removing the woofer inductor AND the mid inductor. I added some attenuation to the tweeters. Removing the mid inductor really helped. I sat the unmodified speaker next to the modified and listened while changing the balance back and forth. Both in Stereo and Mono. Much much more was coming from the mid. There seemed to be more detail (probably since the woofers were supplying less of the range). The problem is that as soon as I turn it up to >100dB, I get quite a bit of distortion in both the mid and woofers while the other remained clear. Since I tend to like my movies and music loud, this is never going to work for me. I believe replacing the mid with one that has higher power rating could be a positive next step but I don't want to part with the mids quite yet. As designed, the mids carry very little of the sound spectrum by themselves. They seem to be more of a filler to keep the SPL up where the woofers taper off and tweeters come on. That 1.0mH inductor really knocks the SPL down. Without it, they distort at~100dB. Same for the woofers.

It's been quite a learning experience so not all was a waste. I think Infinity came up with the best crossover design for the driver components they were using.
 
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As for the Klipsch AL' networks, .. they aren't going to work. The 500Hz crossover is just too low for the Infinity mids. And the HF crossover is useless for the Piezo's. But I have another project in the works using some W1238R speakers... and some really nice dome mid ranges from a set of high end MCS speakers. :) These will be my rear backs. Or maybe I could put them in the Column II's. Hmmmmm :dunno:
 
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