Converting a Fisher X-10 to Bozak B-401 Rhapsody

No prob Biggles! I think that’s what I’m going to do, is run them with the Tobin Mods and Three way crossover, like my 302a’s.
Right now, I’m just using a jumper and essentially running them “full range”.
I’ll leave the N-107’s in there, just disconnected.
So I could just find another N-102 x-over, like my B302s? Right? Then run wires the same way. I’m just curious that all those tweeters are still an 8 ohm load?
The woofers are 16 ohm in series, so the amp will see 8 ohm.

The bi-amp feature is nice. However I don’t have the special active Bozak crossover, and don’t really feel like putting another piece in the signal chain. I’ve read where the recommended crossover points are, and that other actives can be used. But that sounds like a headache. Lol

If anyone has some original N-10102 x-overs they wanna get rid of, let me know. I’ve already got all the caps, and resistors to “Tobinize” them.

Can’t wait!

Hey man,

Sorry, been painfully busy. No Bozak driver should be run full range. The B199 woofer sounds lousy starting up around 800Hz. It's been tried by many and considered a failure 100% of the time. Running mids and tweeters full range will fry them. Any of the N10102 or N10102A, N-102, and probably others, are fine. All you will be using are the 2 large inductors. All the original caps and resistors will be tossed. If keeping factory original wiring of the drivers, the tweeters, mids and woofers will all be an 8ohm load. Rhapsodys, 302's, Symphonys, CG's and others are all 8ohm loads. So, you can use the same Pat Tobin 104T schematic to run them.

Biggles
 
Hey man,

Sorry, been painfully busy. No Bozak driver should be run full range. The B199 woofer sounds lousy starting up around 800Hz. It's been tried by many and considered a failure 100% of the time. Running mids and tweeters full range will fry them. Any of the N10102 or N10102A, N-102, and probably others, are fine. All you will be using are the 2 large inductors. All the original caps and resistors will be tossed. If keeping factory original wiring of the drivers, the tweeters, mids and woofers will all be an 8ohm load. Rhapsodys, 302's, Symphonys, CG's and others are all 8ohm loads. So, you can use the same Pat Tobin 104T schematic to run them.

Biggles


Hey Biggles!
Thanks for the response! I know how busy we can get.


I guess the question I need answered is this.

Sense my B4000a’s have the N107 internal passive crossover, but NOT the N106 active.

Is it safe for both the speakers and the amp to run them as if they were not bi-amp’able?

Like ok...there are 2 sets of inputs on the back, a “LO” and a “HI” set of inputs. Just like any other bi-amp capable speakers. However, I don’t have the N106 active x-over.
So can I run them as any other bi-amp speaker. With one amp. Like right amp output to the “lo”, with “jumper wires” to the “hi’s”? The jumpers essentially acting as “binding plates”?

Then when and if I find a N106, I can bi-amp them.

I’m going to try my Tobin crossovers from my 302’s at some point, which would be what the Symphonies would have had, if they weren’t setup for biamp.

I just want to know that in the meantime, I can hook one set of speaker wires per speaker and run them like any old normal speaker? And would this remain an 8 ohm load.


I’ll take a pic, and show you what I mean. Perhaps my wording is wrong or confusing. Wouldn’t be the first time.

I do plan to:

A- buy or make a N106 external x-over

And

B. Make another set of Tobin N-104t crossovers for them.


Til then. Is N-107 internal passive crossover doing all the work needed? I’d assume so.

They sound good. I just want to know if the N107, can run the speakers, via one amp.

No bi-amping at this point.

You know what I mean right? Like any modern speaker that comes with 4 binding posts for bi-amping. They have “binding plates”, which essentially “share” the power of one amp and send the needed frequencies to the correct drivers. Bozak did not have any binding plates. So in order to power them with one channel from 1 amp, the “hi and lo” needed to be “bound” or “jumped” with a short run of speaker wire.


I’ll post a pic, sorry for all the questions. Just don’t want to mess these up. The owner I got them from is “looking” for the n-106, he couldn’t find it initially. So I figured I’d just use them as normal til I get/make one, or swap for the N-104t Tobin x-over.


Also, I’m looking for some 1.1mh and 3.0mh inductors, going to make some nice external networks for these. I’d rather original Bozak, if not I’ll buy air core from parts express.
 
Treyphan,

I think I got it. You've got the Lo and the Hi terminals on the back. Yeah, strap those together like you would on a modern pair and run as normal.

Parts Express used to carry 3.0mH and 1.1mH 18 gauge air core inductors. The last time I looked, they stopped carrying one or both. You'd have to buy the next value up, then use and LCR meter and unwind the inductor until you get the value you need. It's very easy to do, just need to find an LCR meter, or borrow one.

Biggles
 
Perhaps this will explain my quite “pedestrian” attempt at explains my predicament.

See, without the N106 external, I’m only running one amp, and one run of speaker wire to each speaker.
Then using a short “jumper”, to supply power to the “other half” of the speaker.

I’ve done this with countless speakers, as that’s how they are “normally” designed. I just want to make sure it’s dafe for these Bozaks, as not binding Plate, or jumper was included.

I plan to bi-amp them in the future when I get the correct Equiptment. Also plan on using the 104t Tobin x-over to see how that does. However, til then. I’m running them this way, so to power the speaker with one amp channel.

Hope that clears it up. Lol

Thanks again!!!


@drbiggles and @Retrovert
 

Attachments

  • B745ED92-3454-4F41-8C09-13AF34FC53F1.jpeg
    B745ED92-3454-4F41-8C09-13AF34FC53F1.jpeg
    73.8 KB · Views: 9
You must have a traditional three-way crossover to break the signal into three separate bands. If you do not have the N-10102 or equivalent, you are attempting to run the drivers as full-range.

The N-107 is the portion of a conventional Bozak crossover (N-10102, etc.) which divides the midrange and tweeter. It has nothing for the woofer. Strapping the woofer to the input will run the woofer full-range. Not a good idea at all. As Biggles correctly noted, attempting to run drivers full-range is doomed to poor sound unless the driver has been designed for such use. The Bozak woofer will not properly function in such circumstance.
 
Treyphan,

I think I got it. You've got the Lo and the Hi terminals on the back. Yeah, strap those together like you would on a modern pair and run as normal.

Parts Express used to carry 3.0mH and 1.1mH 18 gauge air core inductors. The last time I looked, they stopped carrying one or both. You'd have to buy the next value up, then use and LCR meter and unwind the inductor until you get the value you need. It's very easy to do, just need to find an LCR meter, or borrow one.

Biggles


Biggles!!! You got it!! Awesome, thanks.

I figured it was fine, and almost so easy, that it would confuse people. I mean, it’s almost obvious that’s how you’d do it.
But...due to the fact that there are no factory “binding” plates, and it used an external part. Just wanted to make sure it was all good.
I mean they sound great. But didn’t wanna screw anything up.
Now, would they remain an 8 ohm load, as far as the amp sees? By combining/jumping the two together? Or would it go to 4?


Also, looks like PE has the 1.1mh and 3mh air cores back in stock. I’m about to order em. As I have all the caps and resistors to make more 104t Tobin networks.
Are the PE inductors as good/or comparable to the OE Bozak inductors? I mean I know they don’t have multiple taps, but tower than that?
 
You must have a traditional three-way crossover to break the signal into three separate bands. If you do not have the N-10102 or equivalent, you are attempting to run the drivers as full-range.

The N-107 is the portion of a conventional Bozak crossover (N-10102, etc.) which divides the midrange and tweeter. It has nothing for the woofer. Strapping the woofer to the input will run the woofer full-range. Not a good idea at all. As Biggles correctly noted, attempting to run drivers full-range is doomed to poor sound unless the driver has been designed for such use. The Bozak woofer will not properly function in such circumstance.


Ok, thanks @Retrovert. In Biggles last response. He said that I COULD strap them and be ok.
But I may have confused him.

You answered what I was wondering, would the N-107 alone, take care of the “dividing” of drivers. As I saw nothing on the Woofer leg of the N107, because the N106 would normally “limit” the input to 400hz and below. Or close to with a 6db per oct roll off?

Looks like it takes care of the Mid and Hi split up, but still gives the Woofer full range, with nothing to “roll off” the frequencies above 400hz. So the woofer will be over worked trying to reproduce frequencies it’s not designed for.

Got it.


So it looks like I’ll need use my N-10102a’s that I already have, or make another set, if I want 1 amp to run them.

Or Find a N-106 external, use a different external active crossover, or build a N-106 “clone”

Sorry for all the confusion. I really really appreciate the help of you both!

If either of you are even in SE Michigan. I owe ya a few cold ones!!


Looks like I’ll be waiting to listen to these Symphonies for a couple days. At least until I get around to installing my N-10102’s in em.
 
Biggles was explaining you must add additional elements to form the equivalent of an N-10102 crossover. So by all means use your existing Tobinized N-10102 as the three-way crossover, and disconnect the N-107 as it is missing the woofer low-pass filter.

So while the connectors may be connected together, an internal crossover is still required.
 
From what little literature I have, the N-107 has no inductor for the woofer. Just like what Retrovert already said.

Open up the backs, disconnect the N-107 entirely. Wire up your Bozak 3-way with Pat Tobin's 104T updates. You're done.
 
Here, let me try!

If you don’t have any crossover at all in the speaker boxes, then when you run the speakers with your amplifier output going into the strapped speaker cabinets, you are essentially running both sets of drivers full range. Likely, if the speakers were unstrapped, then the previous owner was using active crossovers and either removed or disconnected the internal crossovers. Before you run them this way, open the cabinets and check if the crossovers are connected.

That was fun!
 
Here, let me try!

If you don’t have any crossover at all in the speaker boxes, then when you run the speakers with your amplifier output going into the strapped speaker cabinets, you are essentially running both sets of drivers full range. Likely, if the speakers were unstrapped, then the previous owner was using active crossovers and either removed or disconnected the internal crossovers. Before you run them this way, open the cabinets and check if the crossovers are connected.

That was fun!

Right, I understand that completely.

See the issue here, is the “unique” crossover system Rudy used on some of the B-4000a Symphonies, that were wired for Bi-Amping from the factory.

See usually is a passive(internal) crossover system....or an external(active) crossover. Where you would remove or disconnect the “passive” system using the active for the crossover frequencies/slopes and gain.

Not here, ole Rudy decided to go different...no surprise there.

The Crossover consists of 2 parts. The N-107 Passive(internal) and the N-106 Active(external). Which if I am explaining this correctly after a few beers, is where I was confused.
Though I knew something was off after examining the internal crossovers.


Essentially, the External N106 divides the music into “2 sets” of frequencies. 400 hz and below to the “Lo” set of speaker inputs. Which feeds the woofers...HOWEVER, there is NOTHING else limiting the rolloff on the top end, as a normal bi-amped speaker would have. So if you “jump” them, as is the norm for no-amp speakers. You feeed the woofers a full range signal. Something the Ole Woolies in a Bozak aren’t exactly fond, nor capable of. So your bottom end suffers....or some may say sucks.

Now the N-106 sends the 400hz and above to the “hi” inputs on the B-4000a’s. This input has a “traditional network” and divides the signal between the World Beater Mid and the 345 Tweeters or However many Mr. Bozak shoehorned in there. Lol

So your Top end sounds good, other than the stress that’s being out on the Woofer, reproducing not so nice “hi’s”. I’m sure the Amp loves that too.

See, this is where I got confused. I assumed(yeah, I know) that the woofer leg had and inductor or cap limiting its hi end.

NOPE. So as you can see, this is really quite an Odd system. It makes complete sense, but isn’t utilized in ANY speaker I’ve ever seen. Infact it made me look quite like an amateur. I’ll admit.

However, I’m quite capable of speaker surgery. Tmrw I’ll be trying my “Tobinized N10102a’s, with the “l-pad” attenuator mod, from my 302a’s on these here Symphonies.

I’ve already assembled some nice “Outboard Tobin x-overs” for my B4000a’s. I had all the caps and mills resistors in stock. Waiting on new Inductor’s and L-Pads for these.

I’ll be using them externally, cause I like the way x-overs look. Pics to come!

I’m going to leave the N-107’s in place, and hopefully the guy I got these from finds the Bozak N106 external x-over for me. If not I’ll buy one when I can find it. Worst case I’ll make one, I found a schematic, it’s a pretty simple circuit.

That way I can “relatively quickly”, use the “Tobin” or “ Bi-Amp” x-overs. Especially if I drill a couple holes and add a 3rd set of Soeaker Inputs. Rather than utilizing and existing set for the “N-10102’s”.

Infact, that’s what I’ll do.

Then it’s just a quick solder/unsolder of soeaker wires, so swap between.


Hope this helps someone, who may run into this. I realize it may have looked “easy” from reading this.


But the weird “bi-amp” setup with passive and active x-over through me.

Glad I asked.
 
It really does make perfect sense if you take a step back and consider the entirety—speakers, electronic crossover, passive crossover—as a system.

The electronic crossover (N-106) splits the signal into two bands:
(a) low (woofer)
(b) medium+high (midrange and tweeter)​

The pure-band (woofer only) signal from (a) is then amplified and directly fed to the woofer, removing the need for any inductor as a low-pass filter. Remember, the signal is only woofer so filtering is unnecessary.

The composite-band (midrange and tweeter) signal from (b) is amplified and then fed to a passive crossover which splits it in twain for the midrange and tweeter using the N-107. Because this is a shared frequency band a band-pass (c) is required to separate the midrange and a high-pass (d) is required for the tweeter. Same as with a conventional crossover where (c) and (d) would be joined by an inductor for (a).

If one had three amplifiers then the electronic crossover could generate three separate bands, one for each driver: (a) woofer, (b) midrange, and (c) tweeter. With separate bands no passive crossover would be needed at all as the signals would be perfectly separated prior to amplification and remain separated. Three inputs to three amplifiers with three outputs to three speakers. Tri-amping.

So it really is quite simple when considering the entire forest, instead of the individual trees.
 
It really does make perfect sense if you take a step back and consider the entirety—speakers, electronic crossover, passive crossover—as a system.

The electronic crossover (N-106) splits the signal into two bands:
(a) low (woofer)
(b) medium+high (midrange and tweeter)​

The pure-band (woofer only) signal from (a) is then amplified and directly fed to the woofer, removing the need for any inductor as a low-pass filter. Remember, the signal is only woofer so filtering is unnecessary.

The composite-band (midrange and tweeter) signal from (b) is amplified and then fed to a passive crossover which splits it in twain for the midrange and tweeter using the N-107. Because this is a shared frequency band a band-pass (c) is required to separate the midrange and a high-pass (d) is required for the tweeter. Same as with a conventional crossover where (c) and (d) would be joined by an inductor for (a).

If one had three amplifiers then the electronic crossover could generate three separate bands, one for each driver: (a) woofer, (b) midrange, and (c) tweeter. With separate bands no passive crossover would be needed at all as the signals would be perfectly separated prior to amplification and remain separated. Three inputs to three amplifiers with three outputs to three speakers. Tri-amping.

So it really is quite simple when considering the entire forest, instead of the individual trees.


Touché on that last part about the forest/trees @Retrovert , touché indeed. Had I not assumed(yeah I know) that these were wired like any other “bi-amp” speaker, I could’ve saved myself, and both you and Biggles some frustration.
I should’ve popped the backs off sooner and studied the x-over.

I completely understand now, and it does make perfect sense, and is a very nice setup. I’m going back to the person I got these from today, to help them look for the N-106, they’re elderly and said they need help looking. No prob there!! Hopefully I come up with it.


At any rate, I’ll either be building new N-10102’s to the Tobin N-104t spec, as I have the parts, now I need the time. Or I’ll just try the ones from my B302a’s.

Either way, I want the absolute to biamp, so I hope to find the N-106, or I’ll be making one. I spose I could use another Active x-over. However I’d like to keep the Bozaks as original as possible.

At any rate, thanks for dealing with my “slow self” yesterday. Lol I appreciate your patience, Biggles too. I’m usually much quicker to catch on. Lol

I’ll report back how they sound with the Tobin mods. Now, with the N-10102, converted to a N-104t Pat Tobin X-over with the “l-pad” mod, will these be an 8 ohm load to the amp??

Very interesting! That is a setup I would love to hear!


Yeah, I’d love to show them to some of the Bozak Cult, most people around me have no clue about Bozak. If you’re ever in SE Michigan,get ahold of me and I’ll be glad to show you!!! That goes for the others in this thread too!!!


Also, again....if anyone has an N-106 they wanna get rid of, PM me!

Thanks!
 
This is, in fact, the standard technique for bi-amping: eliminate the woofer portion of the crossover (inductor) and continue to use the remaining two-thirds of the three-way crossover (midrange and tweeter portions). A big advantage arises by removing the DCR of the inductor, though low for a low-gauge coil, improves the damping factor and eliminates any losses from ohmic heating. Moving to three amplifiers eliminates any phase shifts in the midrange band, a decided advantage as animal hearing is typically superior in the midrange band compared to the other, higher and lower, bands.

The load presented to the amplifier depends upon the impedance of the individual drivers. Impedance is consequently unaltered when bi-amping is performed, provided each group of drivers is separately driven as a unit.

Now, if one were to hypothetically alter, say, a Symphony with dual 16 Ω woofers wired in parallel to yield 8 Ω impedance to instead use a separate amplifier chanel for each individually, then the impedance seen by the amplifier would obviously change since the speakers were no longer in parallel (8 Ω) and were now individually driven (16 Ω). But you are not making such a change so the impedance would remain its nominal value.

The N-106 was likely connected to whatever stereo was being used. Did you check to see if this was also available? Bozak owners back in the day had high incomes, as the speakers were very expensive compared to the average hourly wage. It would be nice to pick up a vintage McIntosh amplifier originally mated with the speakers. Not sayin', just sayin'. Always pays to ask.
 
This is, in fact, the standard technique for bi-amping: eliminate the woofer portion of the crossover (inductor) and continue to use the remaining two-thirds of the three-way crossover (midrange and tweeter portions). A big advantage arises by removing the DCR of the inductor, though low for a low-gauge coil, improves the damping factor and eliminates any losses from ohmic heating. Moving to three amplifiers eliminates any phase shifts in the midrange band, a decided advantage as animal hearing is typically superior in the midrange band compared to the other, higher and lower, bands.

The load presented to the amplifier depends upon the impedance of the individual drivers. Impedance is consequently unaltered when bi-amping is performed, provided each group of drivers is separately driven as a unit.

Now, if one were to hypothetically alter, say, a Symphony with dual 16 Ω woofers wired in parallel to yield 8 Ω impedance to instead use a separate amplifier chanel for each individually, then the impedance seen by the amplifier would obviously change since the speakers were no longer in parallel (8 Ω) and were now individually driven (16 Ω). But you are not making such a change so the impedance would remain its nominal value.

The N-106 was likely connected to whatever stereo was being used. Did you check to see if this was also available? Bozak owners back in the day had high incomes, as the speakers were very expensive compared to the average hourly wage. It would be nice to pick up a vintage McIntosh amplifier originally mated with the speakers. Not sayin', just sayin'. Always pays to ask.



Yeah, these came from a VERY wealthy Owner, in one of the ritziest cities in the country.
He said the amps were already gone. He is selling the home, and only the Speakers remained. Like I said, they’d been “re-veneered” in Black Formica, and new black grille cloth was installed, just like the Klipsch Heritage speakers use, to match his Giant 90s entertainment center.
He did use Macs initially, though he was “persuaded” to “trade up” to some Pioneer Elite amps in the 90s, by a not so honest Stereo shop, imo.
The home was mostly empty, and I was only allowed to “look quickly” as he was in a hurry.

I spotted them and luckily saw just a quick glimmer/flash from the aluminum,on the always peeling latex on the mid. Though it’s 95% there. That and the shape made me think....”whoa!! No way!? Symphonies in disguise??!!”

I wasn’t even allowed to listen to them. As the owner had a “dinner date”. So I had to act fast, wasn’t aware of the N-106, and the price was too cheap to think twice and miss. He doesn’t seem to remember the N106 when I called back later and asked, but he didn’t ever hook any of it up,he paid installers. All other Stereo Equiptment was gone. He had some Satellite receivers and VHS re-winders etc, all nineties looking black box electronics in the corner. I’m hoping the N-106 is still in that pile, as he said he has “that junk” still. Fingers crossed.
I had to lug them up from his giant finished “basement”, (nicer than my home) a spiral staircase with 23 steps. Lol no help, just my trusty Hand Truck.
That was fun as it was 100 degrees that day and humid as could be, and the owner didn’t have the air on, as he didn’t live there anymore. There were painters, painting said staircase. Lol and the owner followed me up watching that I didn’t mar his precious paint. Which I didn’t, I respected his home.

Then I somehow loaded both, by myself in my Dodge Journey. They barely fit, this is when a small piece of the ugly black veneer popped off. Revealing the gorgeous original Bozak walnut veneer.
I’ll be removing the rest of the Formica, stripping the glue and refinishing to original. They are the Moderns, so I’d like to find similar grille cloth. Though the black “klipsch style” grille looks good.

I’d love to find another cheap Mac, and I was thinking the same thing. Anyone who ponies up for Symphonies, probably had a Mac Tube amp runnin then, or a Fisher 800 atleast. Lol
I did the conversion, and Symphonies purchased at $2k in 1967, equates to over $14k today, according to google....so yeah, owners of these had some cash.

I plan to run them with my 2 Mc240’s and MC-110z, all restored! A perfect mate for Bozaks. I’ve read Rudy voiced these with Macs. Though I’ve read conflicting reports he used SS and Tube.

If I use the Tobin 104t lll run each strapped as a mono amp. When I get the N106, or other active, I’ll run one for the Hi’s and One for the Lo’s in normal stereo mode.

I also have a MC2105, and believe me, I’ve though about throwing all the Bozak Crossovers out of the equation, and Tri-Amping with the SS 2105 on the Woofers. I think a 2105 would handle those babies well. I’ll do this at some point.

But I’d like to keep the 2105 open for my B302a’s for now.

In the end, I want all 3 options.
1. Tobin 104t modded x-over
2. Original N-106/N-107 combo
3. Custom Tri-Amp setup. Though I’m not sure which Crossover to use. I’ve read a lot of Bozak owners use the Pioneer 850, which is nice. But kinda pricey, I think I could do better, tho keeping the “vintage” look would be nice.

I’ve heard my Friends Concert Grands, I set them up for him, Tri-Amped with 3 Carver M1.5t’s. I know, way too much power. It’s what he wanted, I couldn’t convince him otherwise. No way tweeters need 350 wpc. The gain is barely above 1.5 on the tweeter leg of the active crossover.


Anyway, once they’re hooked up, I’ll add some pics.
 
Last edited:
This is, in fact, the standard technique for bi-amping: eliminate the woofer portion of the crossover (inductor) and continue to use the remaining two-thirds of the three-way crossover (midrange and tweeter portions). A big advantage arises by removing the DCR of the inductor, though low for a low-gauge coil, improves the damping factor and eliminates any losses from ohmic heating. Moving to three amplifiers eliminates any phase shifts in the midrange band, a decided advantage as animal hearing is typically superior in the midrange band compared to the other, higher and lower, bands..

Hey @Retrovert

I REALLY appreciate you sharing your knowledge. It’s more helpful than you probably know!!
So ok, here’s where I’m at. I’ve built another Set of Tobin N-104t crossover w/ “l-pad” mod. I used Inductors from Parts express, as I didn’t wanna buy another set of N-10102’s just for them.
Unfortunately, my trip to the original owners to find the N-106, didn’t go so well. We couldn’t find it, and he was in a hurry again, and only looked for about 5-10 min. Whatever, his time is valuable too, and to be fair, he could care less. At least he “tried”, I’ve offered to pay if he ever finds it. He perked up a bit when I re-iterated that. Funny, as he is LOADED, but $100 made him say “it it’s here I’ll Find it for ya!!!” Lol

So I’m still on the lookout for one, if anyone has one?!?! Doesn’t look like there are any online for sale.

So my next move is this. An active crossover. I’d really like to hear these at their absolute best. Your explanation of removing the passive components, is a great one. It should make for an audible improvement. As I do have very High quality amplification and sources.
I curious as to your opinion on active crossovers. I see Elliot Sound has the schematic for what looks to be a pretty slick active. I’m considering making one. Though time isn’t something I have a lot of extra of.

So if I don’t I’m left with either a vintage active crossover, like the Pioneer 850, or buying a newer one. Anything to look out for?

Is anybody using an active with Symphonies or CG’s that they particularly like? I used a Rane active that my buddy had, to tri-amp his CG’s. It did sound good. However, just wondered if anyone had any recommendations?

I’d like 2 way and 3 way capability. As I do plan to use 3 amps, but would like the ability to use in a 2 way system in the future.

Thanks again.
 
Hey Treyphan,

You've got to be careful with active crossovers and Bozak 3-ways. From the factory, they use a first order crossover. This type of crossovers don't have a steep slope and all the drivers blend into each other. The active crossovers I've used use a second order design, steeper slopes, they cut the frequencies off a lot quicker. The B209B midrange has an impedance rise as it gets to and around 1700Hz. This is why Mr. Tobin cut it off around 1200Hz. The B200Y tweeters are cut off at 2500Hz. With a first order crossover, the mids and the tweeters slowly blend into each other for a perfect blend that delivers a balanced presentation to you and me. If that active crossover has a higher order crossover and you cut it off at say, 1400Hz or a little more, you're still going to have a hole between the mids and the tweeters. If you're really interested in all these shenanigans, I would suggest talking to David MacRunnel on the Facebook Bozak group. He has run, or is running a pair of CG's with active crossovers. He would be able to give you information regarding the process from personal experience.

If they were mine, I would install the passive 3-way Tobin crossover and walk away. When the N-106 pops up on ebay, or locally, you can pick that up.

Biggles
 
Hey Treyphan,

You've got to be careful with active crossovers and Bozak 3-ways. From the factory, they use a first order crossover. This type of crossovers don't have a steep slope and all the drivers blend into each other. The active crossovers I've used use a second order design, steeper slopes, they cut the frequencies off a lot quicker. The B209B midrange has an impedance rise as it gets to and around 1700Hz. This is why Mr. Tobin cut it off around 1200Hz. The B200Y tweeters are cut off at 2500Hz. With a first order crossover, the mids and the tweeters slowly blend into each other for a perfect blend that delivers a balanced presentation to you and me. If that active crossover has a higher order crossover and you cut it off at say, 1400Hz or a little more, you're still going to have a hole between the mids and the tweeters. If you're really interested in all these shenanigans, I would suggest talking to David MacRunnel on the Facebook Bozak group. He has run, or is running a pair of CG's with active crossovers. He would be able to give you information regarding the process from personal experience.

If they were mine, I would install the passive 3-way Tobin crossover and walk away. When the N-106 pops up on ebay, or locally, you can pick that up.

Biggles


@drbiggles thanks! That’s a great point, about the crossover slopes, one I hadn’t thought of. This is why I love this forum!
It’s probanly a good idea that I join the Bozak Facebook page, anyway.

Yeah, shenanigans indeed, I don’t necessarily “want to” go through all that. Lol

Yeah, I think I’ll just have to wait for the 106 to show up, and listen to these Badboys with the Tobin Crossovers, til then.

No sense in chasing my tail, which it seems like this would turn into, with an Active 3 way, based on your, very good, points earlier.

Guess I got a bit too excited, and wanted it all. They sound magnificent with the Tobin x-overs. So I’ll just have to “settle” for that for now.
I almost wish they hadn’t come setup for Bi-Amp’ing, would’ve saved me some time.

Good things come to those who wait, or something like that. I’m sure an N106 will pop up when it’s sposed to. If not, oh well.
 
@drbiggles , if I could trouble you for one more question.....how would I add a “supertweeter”? Would I need to make a “4th leg” of the crossover for it? With a cap to limit the lows? If so, how would this effect the impedance seen at the amp?
I suppose replacing with a better tweeter, that can reach out to 20khz or so and a L-pad would be the easiest solution. But then I’d have 16 extra Bozak tweeters, and tbh, I like the B200y’s sound, just wish it went out a bit further. Bit more “sparkle”.
I’ve had great success with the B&C DE120 tweeter, in other builds. It’s a tweeter I really like. They’d fit in the motor board nicely.
I’ve also got some of them on hand, as well as there billet aluminum horn lens’. Now maybe the efficieny difference is too much, (106 dB, 8 ohm)But I can’t help thinking that adding it for the, oh idk, 10k to 22k or so would really “open up the top end”.
Sorry for all the questions, this forum has really been such a help. Especially you and Retrovert. You guys rock!
 
Back
Top Bottom