Crown amps: CE series or Macro-Tech series, which is better?

[steelglam]

I've heard folks tout both the CE and Macro-Tech series of Crown amps. For folks that have heard both, do you have an opinion on which is better, generally speaking? I've come across both a CE 2000 and a Macro-Tech 1200 that piqued my interest in recent weeks.

I have a DC-300A and while I respect it's authority and reliability, it leaves a bit to be desired in terms of detail and clarity. I know that the later series Crown stuff is an improvement.

 

[rcspkramp]

Just an opinion, but I prefer the Macrotech products.

 

[steelglam]

Thank, rcspkramp.

I'm a bit confused about the Macro-Tech series, though. I thought it was supposed to be newer and more powerful than the CE series, but from what I can glean from the web, it looks like the Macro-Tech 1200 that I found is actually older and less powerful than the CE 2000. Is this true, or am I misunderstanding the sequence and specs?

 

[rcspkramp]

I think it is older but it's also pre-switching power supply,digital, etc. I've heard it and wow, power, control and great transparancy.

 

[whoaru99]

Macro-Tech is the touring-grade amp. Earlier models were the familiar "big iron" methodology. The newer ones are switching-type amps.

The CEs were more of a mid-line "bar band" or install type of amp, for lack of a better way to describe them.

Both Macro-Tech and CE have various models/outputs so one cannot rely just on the name as a guide to power. There was also the Micro-Tech line that sometimes people confuse with Macro-Tech.

I'm somewhat familiar with the CE line up having three CE4000s. The CE1000 and CE2000 are conventional "big iron" amps, while the CE4000 is TOTALLY different being a switching power supply and switching output. Rumors are the CE4000 was foundation of I-Tech line, but of course I-Tech is newer yet with DSP and probably enhancements and higher power models.

Based on my "studies" on pro sound forums, the CE1000 and CE2000 are not too well regarded for reliability, but given the context of professional/semi-professional use, that may not have a ton of significance for home use. However, the CE4000 seems to have a pretty loyal following for sub amp duty if you don't mind older amps and don't need all the DSP stuff built in.

Myself, I do not use the CE4000 for mid/high instead using some QSCs there, but do find the CE4000 makes a pretty good sub amp. The CE4000 has universal power supply and power factor correction built in so it's sort of like a regulated power supply. It will produce virtually rated output down to about 95 or 96 volts input which is nice if you have crappy mains supply. If you happen to have 200-240V available, there is no switching required, just plug it in, and output capability increases from 2,800W (4 ohms bridged) to 3,600W.

 

[70salesguy]

I would seriously consider a PS-400.

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/k1073-4.pdf

 

[rcspkramp]

I was confusing Macro with Micro. I've only heard the Micro and that was a few years back. Impressive though.

 

[Jon_Logan]

I was confusing Macro with Micro. I've only heard the Micro and that was a few years back. Impressive though.

Yep, there's a Micro and a Macro.

What I'd really like from Crown is the Studio Reference Delta Omega.


Yeahhhh, negative resistance baby.

 

[steelglam]

So, I picked up the Macro-Tech.

I'm experiencing something peculiar with it, though. I have to turn the gain up much higher on my pre-amps to get the same level of volume as with my other power amps (a Bryston 3B and Yamaha MX-1000).

Like I would say a full 1/4 turn of the gain knob on the pre to get the same volume with the Crown as with the Bryston or Yamaha. In other words, my typical listening level with the Bryston and Yamaha is at "9:00" on the volume knob. But with the Crown, I have to turn it to "12:00" to get the same volume. And I have the gain all the way up on the Crown.

Isn't that a bit odd, since the Macro-Tech is actually more powerful? The sound itself is VERY clean, but it's quieter.

Could it be an impedance mismatch with my preamps or something: an Onkyo P-3030 and an Apt Holman?

I'm just afraid that if I have to turn the gain halfway up on my pre to get to a normal listening level, I'm going to clip the amp or damage the speakers if I want to play them loud.

 

[Jon_Logan]

Don't worry about the gain difference. Gain is different from power. The Crown being Pro is expecting larger signals feeding it. Not to worry.

 

[steelglam]

Don't worry about the gain difference. Gain is different from power. The Crown being Pro is expecting larger signals feeding it. Not to worry.

Got it.

My only concern is: can I conceivably run out of room with the gain on the pre's though? If I have to turn the gain halfway up to get a mild/moderate volume level, if I really want to play loud (which I sometimes do), am I going to run out of room with the pre's that I have?

Are there certain pre's or types of pre's that are a better match for a pro amp like the Crown? Ones with larger signals?

By the way, I also experience this phenomenon no matter what speakers I place in the chain. So, it's not speaker-dependent.

 

[Jon_Logan]

It is possible. Your preamp may need to put out a few volts to get the Crown to clip. That's the first part. The second part would be, "does your preamp have enough gain to drive your lowest output level source component to the few volts output to get the Crown to clip-land?".You shouldn't worry too much about the volume control setting. You should have no interest in getting the Crown past clipping.

 

[RayW]

As I recall, the Macrotech series had an input sensitivity switch. Seems like it was located behind a panel or something on the back. I think they came set at the highest sensitivity but if you got it used, the previous owner could have switched it. If it's set at a different level it could cause the problem you're describing. You might check that out.

 

[steelglam]

It is possible. Your preamp may need to put out a few volts to get the Crown to clip. That's the first part. The second part would be, "does your preamp have enough gain to drive your lowest output level source component to the few volts output to get the Crown to clip-land?".You shouldn't worry too much about the volume control setting. You should have no interest in getting the Crown past clipping.

Ha ha ha! I sure do not want to get it to clip. I hope I wasn't conveying that message!

Thanks, Jon.

 

[steelglam]

As I recall, the Macrotech series had an input sensitivity switch. Seems like it was located behind a panel or something on the back. I think they came set at the highest sensitivity but if you got it used, the previous owner could have switched it. If it's set at a different level it could cause the problem you're describing. You might check that out.

I just downloaded the manual a bit ago, and you're right. It says the following:

"The input sensitivity switch is located inside the back panel of the amplifier. It is factory-set to 0.775 volts for standard 1-kHz power into 8 ohms. It can be switched either to 1.4 volts for standard 1-kHz power output, or to a fixed voltage gain of 26 dB. When set to 26 dB gain, the input sensitivity is 2.6 volts for the Macro-Tech 1200."

According to their respective stated specifications, the rated output for the Apt pre is 2.0V, and the rated output for the Onkyo is 1.0V. (Btw, no matter what amp or speakers I use, the Apt has always had a lower gain/output than the Onkyo...in other words the Onkyo is always louder.)

 

[whoaru99]

The rated output of a preamp is a somewhat misleading statistic because it is referenced to (typically) a very small input signal.

The rated output of 2V may be with respect to something like a 150mV input signal. If you're using a source with more output than 150mV, such as a CD player, the preamp will be capable of more than nominal/rated output.

FWIW, 26dB gain is fairly common value for amps, and many consumer amps have input sensitivity of around 1.5V, so the 1.4V setting may be a good match. FWIW, it's actually advantageous if you need to turn up the preamp a bit more, rather than have it blasting at a low setting. So, you may want to choose the setting that actually facilitates turning the volume knob more than you're use to.

What type of cable connection and or adapters are you using to connect the pre to the power amp?

 

[steelglam]

The rated output of a preamp is a somewhat misleading statistic because it is referenced to (typically) a very small input signal.

The rated output of 2V may be with respect to something like a 150mV input signal. If you're using a source with more output than 150mV, such as a CD player, the preamp will be capable of more than nominal/rated output.

FWIW, 26dB gain is fairly common value for amps. Also, it's actually advantageous if you need to turn up the preamp a bit more, rather than have it blasting at a low setting.

What type of cable connection and or adapters are you using to connect the pre to the power amp?

The only thing I had lying around that fit is a cable with two RCA outputs coming from the pre on one end and two unbalanced 1/4" inputs into the Crown on the other end. No adapters.

Even if I got a cable with balanced inputs, that shouldn't change the level of the output, right? I thought that balanced inputs only helped to eliminate noise and hum, which don't seem to be a problem currently (it's pretty quiet).

 

[whoaru99]

The only thing I had lying around that fit is a cable with two RCA outputs coming from the pre on one end and two unbalanced 1/4" inputs into the Crown on the other end. No adapters.

That sounds fine. :thmbsp:

 

[steelglam]

That sounds fine. :thmbsp:

If I end up hanging onto this Crown, I'll probably upgrade the cables.

Do they make balanced XLR-to-RCA cables? I'm assuming that would be the best connection.

I'm going to open the Crown tonight and try the different input sensitivity settings and see if that makes a difference.

 

[whoaru99]

Yes, there are RCA > XLR cables, but all you gain is the more robust style of the XLR connector. The handling of the signal is exactly the same as what you have now; it remains an unbalanced connection.