Current Crop of R-2R DACs
- Thread starter edwyun
- Start date
The point I was trying to make is that one needs to hear a better NOS implementation before making blanket statements based on their experience with vintage TDA chips, especially in the context of the $3k stated budget in the OP.
willsw
New Member
Until recently I was able to directly compare three TDA1543 based DACs: a Starting Point Systems DAC3 (which is the type of implementation many seem to base their opinion of NOS on), a Wavelength Brick, which uses a tube and choke coupled output, and a Border Patrol DAC, which uses a very hefty hybrid tube/SS rectified power supply and a very simple DAC circuit. I also had the Metrum Musette in my system at times. The three 1543 DACs share the much discussed quality of naturalism with music that involves non-electronic instruments, but other than that they all had very different character. They also are, of course, greatly influenced by the amplification that follows, and probably lesser amplifiers would flatten the better DACs - the Wavelength and the Border Patrol. The DAC3 is a pleasant, portable, inexpensive DAC that I'd recommend for $150, but not want anyone to judge an entire type of converter by. I preferred the Wavelength and the Border Patrol to the Musette.
But this is about the current crop! Which technically includes the still-produced Brick and the newly formalized BP DAC. Metrum has released its new DAC2 module, which now has built-in FPGA, which they're slowly integrating into older products. I'm not sure if the Musette will be replaced by their new headphone amp/DAC or will remain, but I look forward to hearing the new chip. Soekris is also introducing their new DAC this summer, which will top out with a $1200 model, but given how popular the board is for OEM use, I'm sure you'll see many deluxeified versions. The Holo Audio Spring Level 3 is well-regarded, and allows you to switch between NOS and OS, as do the higher-end Denafrips DACs.
The Aqua La Voce V2 is supposed to be good; the V1 was similar to the Yggy and the Spring Lvl 3. I believe the La Voce is still chip-based, so I'd look to the La Scala, which is where FPGA enters the line. A used one might be found around $3000. I've only heard the La Scala once, when we had one at our table for NY CanJam, but the one time was among the best headphone listening experiences I've had.
But this is about the current crop! Which technically includes the still-produced Brick and the newly formalized BP DAC. Metrum has released its new DAC2 module, which now has built-in FPGA, which they're slowly integrating into older products. I'm not sure if the Musette will be replaced by their new headphone amp/DAC or will remain, but I look forward to hearing the new chip. Soekris is also introducing their new DAC this summer, which will top out with a $1200 model, but given how popular the board is for OEM use, I'm sure you'll see many deluxeified versions. The Holo Audio Spring Level 3 is well-regarded, and allows you to switch between NOS and OS, as do the higher-end Denafrips DACs.
The Aqua La Voce V2 is supposed to be good; the V1 was similar to the Yggy and the Spring Lvl 3. I believe the La Voce is still chip-based, so I'd look to the La Scala, which is where FPGA enters the line. A used one might be found around $3000. I've only heard the La Scala once, when we had one at our table for NY CanJam, but the one time was among the best headphone listening experiences I've had.
willsw
New Member
I suppose the differences are consistent with any comparison between DACs, or other components like amplifiers, when the primary circuit is surrounded by heavier duty hardware. Moving from the DAC3 to the Brick or the Border Patrol DAC you get better bass, tighter imaging, deeper layering: it's not very descriptive but all I can really say is that nearly everything is improved. I think that the TDA1543 will nearly always have less deep bass extension than many other DACs, which I found comparing the Brick to others, but the DAC3 rolls off on the low end sooner. The Border Patrol DAC manages to have surprising and impressive bass, which I will soon compare to some oversampling DACs. The BP DAC is also a bit more precise in its detail than others. It's probably the least typical TDA1543 implementation I've heard, based on my own experience and reading about other DACs using the chip.
ferninando
Lunatic Member
Can someone please explane the benefit and appeal of a R2R DAC?
Ditto for NOS. I gather it does not mean new old stock.
I am not very DAC savy.
thanks.
Ditto for NOS. I gather it does not mean new old stock.
I am not very DAC savy.
thanks.
R2R is basically the same as multibit DAC, digital to analog conversion is more or less straightforward and based on a resistor ladder, this is the classic approach to DA convesion. Quality R2R dac implementations, on-chip or discrete, tend to be expensive as they require precision components and manufacturing processes. R2R DACs in audio products were largely replaced by Delta-Sigma DACs that work on a completely different principle and are cheaper to manufacture but despite their high specs are believed to be inferior to R2R in sound reproduction. NOS stands for Non-Over-Sampling, which means the digital signal doesn't go through any additional transformations before it is fed to the DA chip or circuit, and OS stands for Over-Sampling meaning the original digital signal is digitally analyzed and additional samples are added to artificially increase the sampling rate, this doesn't add any new information but it helps to improve technical specs of the design. NOS sounds different than OS and NOS vs. OS is a controversial topic, OS is superior on paper and test bench but many prefer the sound from NOS units as it sounds more "natural". Both R2R and DS DACs can be made operating as NOS or OS, although the DS aren't fully NOS even if claimed so as OS is a more or less integral part of the DS approach.
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ferninando
Lunatic Member
thanks for that gvl.
got abit more studying to do.
got abit more studying to do.
RGA
Super Member
Audio Note DACs are the ones you want - they were the company that brought this back from the original Sony/Philips machines but did it properly. They hired one of Sonic Frontiers designers back in the day (Michael Kerster) as well as other engineers (yes with degrees and have patents too). Guy Adams of Voyd Turntables and now HP. They make DACs under $1,500 up to $100k
AN DACs do run in opposition to most of the rest of the industry in that they are Non oversampling and also do not use any digital or analog brickwall filters. No jitter reduction or error correction. SO they measure poorly in certain parameters - or they measure the way it should measure and the rest of the industry has it wrong - and when you listen to them in A/B comparisons or blind level matched conditions it is interesting that they have always won. They also sell the DACs in kit form.
The DAC Kit 3.1 is $2175 http://www.ankaudiokits.com/ANK-Audio-Kits-Home-Page.html#
The DAC Kit 4.1 is $3100 and they will build it for you for $400. http://www.ankaudiokits.com/ANK-Audio-Kits-Home-Page.html#
Production unit DAC you can get the DAC 2.1x for $3200.
I myself will likely buy the $10,000 DAC 3.1x.
The measurements are appalling but then are you trying to impress posters on audio boards or do you want something that sounds good?
Here is reviewer Peter Bruninger who has heard ALL of the top hi res DACS and SACD machines and was a reviewer for both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Here he is interviewing Audio Note's owner Peter Qvortrup and they discuss the CD technology in part one and audition it in part 2. Granted youtube is limited. Don't worry about the nutty prices - they make quite affordable DAC starting at $1400 DAC 0.1x
AN DACs do run in opposition to most of the rest of the industry in that they are Non oversampling and also do not use any digital or analog brickwall filters. No jitter reduction or error correction. SO they measure poorly in certain parameters - or they measure the way it should measure and the rest of the industry has it wrong - and when you listen to them in A/B comparisons or blind level matched conditions it is interesting that they have always won. They also sell the DACs in kit form.
The DAC Kit 3.1 is $2175 http://www.ankaudiokits.com/ANK-Audio-Kits-Home-Page.html#
The DAC Kit 4.1 is $3100 and they will build it for you for $400. http://www.ankaudiokits.com/ANK-Audio-Kits-Home-Page.html#
Production unit DAC you can get the DAC 2.1x for $3200.
I myself will likely buy the $10,000 DAC 3.1x.
The measurements are appalling but then are you trying to impress posters on audio boards or do you want something that sounds good?
Here is reviewer Peter Bruninger who has heard ALL of the top hi res DACS and SACD machines and was a reviewer for both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Here he is interviewing Audio Note's owner Peter Qvortrup and they discuss the CD technology in part one and audition it in part 2. Granted youtube is limited. Don't worry about the nutty prices - they make quite affordable DAC starting at $1400 DAC 0.1x
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Tdogzthmn
Active Member
I have the Metrum Musette and find it to sound just fine with Apple TV as a primary source. My hi resolution library is sitting on a NAS which I'm unable to connect to at present so for now I stream Apple music through the Musette into my Integrated amp. My other DAC is the Meridian Direct DAC which is an upsampling DAC. I still need to do some A/B listening sessions once I have my hi resolution library connected to my stereo system.
Soekris Engineering in Denmark makes a line of very reasonably priced discrete R-2R DACs. I have their DAM-1021 and like it a lot, but you need to add your own input interfaces, power supply and case. (There's lots of advice on diyaudio.com if you want to go that route.). But they've also come out with a new line of finished plug and play DACs using the same technology, which will run $500-$1200 direct.
Luckbad
Basshead
I love Sonic Frontiers DACs and have had a couple in the past, including a fully upgraded SFD-1 MKII SE+ up until several months ago.
I'm also a big fan of MHDT Labs DACs. They're tube buffered non-oversampling R-2R DACs. Not as accurate as modern oversampling DACs, but in my opinion they're more organic, romantic, and involving.
They come in a bunch of flavors: http://mhdtlab.com
I currently have both an Atlantis and Orchid. I've further modified the Atlantis pretty extensively (a bunch of different capacitors, input transfomers, (unnecessary) larger toroidal, fuse, of course a simple tube change as well) and have changed out the DAC chip, output caps and tube on the Orchid. Most of the individual changes are pretty much impossible to distinguish (enough mods add up to a slight difference that I can A/B between stock) but they certainly make me feel better.
I have a Metrum Amethyst incoming this weekend as well. I've nearly loved their DACs in the past, but this is the first one that has prompted me to go forward with a purchase. I have someone I trust who helped me work through the world of NOS (non-oversampling, not new-old-stock) DACs who vouches for how good this one is.
I should mention that I primarily listen to classical symphonies and acoustic guitar music at home with my NOS R-2R DACs. I actually still prefer oversampling with a lot of modern music and rock.
I'm also a big fan of MHDT Labs DACs. They're tube buffered non-oversampling R-2R DACs. Not as accurate as modern oversampling DACs, but in my opinion they're more organic, romantic, and involving.
They come in a bunch of flavors: http://mhdtlab.com
- MHDT Labs Pagoda: Burr-Brown PCM1704 (24-bit)
- MHDT Labs Stockholm: Burr-Brown PCM56P-J (16-bit)
- MHDT Labs Atlantis: Analog Devices AD1862N-J (20-bit)
- MHDT Labs Canary: Philips TDA1545A (16-bit)
- MHDT Labs Orchid: Philips TDA1541A – R1 (16-bit)
I currently have both an Atlantis and Orchid. I've further modified the Atlantis pretty extensively (a bunch of different capacitors, input transfomers, (unnecessary) larger toroidal, fuse, of course a simple tube change as well) and have changed out the DAC chip, output caps and tube on the Orchid. Most of the individual changes are pretty much impossible to distinguish (enough mods add up to a slight difference that I can A/B between stock) but they certainly make me feel better.
I have a Metrum Amethyst incoming this weekend as well. I've nearly loved their DACs in the past, but this is the first one that has prompted me to go forward with a purchase. I have someone I trust who helped me work through the world of NOS (non-oversampling, not new-old-stock) DACs who vouches for how good this one is.
I should mention that I primarily listen to classical symphonies and acoustic guitar music at home with my NOS R-2R DACs. I actually still prefer oversampling with a lot of modern music and rock.
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I absolutely love the Musette, and the Amethyst should be an improvement as it is using newer FPGA-corrected 24-bit Transient modules, plus the headphone amp if you need it. Looks like Metrum is replacing their lower-end models with upgraded designs as both the Musette and the Menuet are both gone from their site. I can relate to the oversampling comment for modern music, but it is an easy fix when using JRiver or Foobar2000.
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Still expensive. Metrum Acoustics claims they now can do 24-bit even in their entry-level Amethyst ($1,300) and their more expensive DACs (Pavane/Menuette) always supported 24-bits. 20-bit r2r DACs have been around, e.g. Adcom GDA-600.
