WhiteNoize
Active Member
The MHDT Lab Pagoda is 24 bit. I picked up this dac before MHDT Lab even had it listed on their site for sale. Best dac I have had the pleasure to use in all my years and one I'll never let go.
Current Crop of R-2R DACs
- Thread starter edwyun
- Start date
PCM1704 which is the DAC chip the Pagoda is based on can take 24 bits on its input but rated at 120dB SNR, which means it has effective resolution of "only" 20 bits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth#Quantization
I have experimenting with a number of MB and NOS dacs, and old school chip tube dacs (Maverick) and much is really system dependent. The higher resolution your system is, the better the NOS Dac's will tend to sound. I have settled on some fairly inexpensive ones in my system, and frankly they sound the best to my ears, as well as other listeners. I run modded ESS AMT3's in both my systems. Sealed woofers. The Maverick tubed output sounds very similar to the Project Dac Box S FL. The Project is slightly more refined, but very close. I also have a battery Dac 3, one TDA 1543 chip that sounds excellent, slightly leaner on the bass response. None of these sounds muddy or boomy, or artificial. The Heils seem to extract more then enough detail with out the brightness, or fatigue. All are very quiet. I would say all benefit from good matching cables, particularly the USB cable (Mav and DAC3) Cables that have a true physically isolated and insulated power wire in them sound the best.
I think you can go up the Dac ladder and not necessarily get better sound, (different maybe) because you might just not have a good system match.
I think you can go up the Dac ladder and not necessarily get better sound, (different maybe) because you might just not have a good system match.
Another reason I like true NOS because it opens up additional avenues for experimentation with, well, OS. HQPlayer from Signalist has a collection of high-quality digital filters that you can play with and fine tune the sound to your liking. The idea behind it is that modern PCs have infinitely more power than the DAC onboard hardware so digital filters can be designed with fewer compromises if any. Of course your DAC has to be up to snuff in the first place. I took the HQPlayer's trial version for a quick spin with Metrum Musette with very good results. I haven't tried all the filters but with some I was able to get a NOS-like natural sound without the artifacts NOS gets criticized for such as dirty highs and high frequency roll-off. I also use the resampler in JRiver when in the mood for it, but filters in HQPlayer sounded better to my ears.
Myself, I like the simplicity of getting a DAC system matched.
In my set up with the AMT3’s, there’s no need for additional processing and you can keep the chain simple.
They extract plenty of detail, and let those DAC’s shine for what they are.
I don’t think a NOS is a good match for a good number of systems.
Beyond cables, and clean USB power to a DAC that needs the outboard 5 volt to function, having to deal with to many tweeks/ filters/ additional supporting components, kinda defeats the purpose, and simplicity of a NOS DAC.
Particularly a simple unit like the DAC Box S FL...but pretty much any NOS DAC IMHO.
As I side note, I can’t say any of these DAC’s I mentioned have dirty highs.
In my system, they are sweet and layered with good air. And yes, they are all fairly inexpensive.
But they match up well to the AMT3’s and my H/K amps and preamps.
I think you have to have a good understanding of your system and what components match, and can improve your system to your liking.
Otherwise you’re just going down the road of adding component after component to get a new addition to work.
Nothing wrong with that, but myself I personally try to avoid that.
It gets to be never ending.
In my set up with the AMT3’s, there’s no need for additional processing and you can keep the chain simple.
They extract plenty of detail, and let those DAC’s shine for what they are.
I don’t think a NOS is a good match for a good number of systems.
Beyond cables, and clean USB power to a DAC that needs the outboard 5 volt to function, having to deal with to many tweeks/ filters/ additional supporting components, kinda defeats the purpose, and simplicity of a NOS DAC.
Particularly a simple unit like the DAC Box S FL...but pretty much any NOS DAC IMHO.
As I side note, I can’t say any of these DAC’s I mentioned have dirty highs.
In my system, they are sweet and layered with good air. And yes, they are all fairly inexpensive.
But they match up well to the AMT3’s and my H/K amps and preamps.
I think you have to have a good understanding of your system and what components match, and can improve your system to your liking.
Otherwise you’re just going down the road of adding component after component to get a new addition to work.
Nothing wrong with that, but myself I personally try to avoid that.
It gets to be never ending.
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I don't know the format of the material you listen to or if your DAC has the analog reconstruction filter designed for redbook (it appears that the DAC Box S FL doesn't). What I do know is that I like NOS sound but I'm also fully aware of the associated technical issues when used with 44.1kHz sampled content. I have 2 NOS DACs that have no or a very gentle reconstruction filter and they do definitely sound a bit dirty and rolled off in the highs with redbook. I accept it because other positives outweigh this downside. This works well for most types of music. Recently, however, I started to listen more to classical music on CDs and sadly I don't think I like how it sounds through my NOS. The issue is especially apparent on violins, they sound washed out and mushy as compared to when I play it through my Denon DCD-1520s 8x oversampling multibit DAC. This led me to some experimentation with the HQPlayer I mentioned, and with its software-based oversampling filters the violins sounds as good or better than through the Denon when played though the NOS DAC (no longer NOS technically due to software oversampling). I get what you're saying and I'm trying to avoid the infinite fine-tuning iterations as well, but I also like to take a step back and question what I think I'm hearing time after time and make a correction if necessary.
Sure. My listening is all over the place. I have more then a few tracks that include violin, and frankly don't hear that. Perhaps it's better system matching, or the Heils? Hard to say. The Heils have a speed and correct tonality that's probably not matched my other designs. The complimentary driver also have excellent transient response. The Heils, were IMHO a bad match for the Schiit MB's. Not harsh by any means, but uber analytical. An interesting and addictive sound at first. But add to that the forward (but rock solid) presentation, it was a bit too much.
I do think you find what ever works. Amt3's (and my Mojo moded ones in particular) along with the Great Heil are unique animals in their own right. Like the NOS non filtered Dacs'. I find it very interesting they are such a great match.
I do think you find what ever works. Amt3's (and my Mojo moded ones in particular) along with the Great Heil are unique animals in their own right. Like the NOS non filtered Dacs'. I find it very interesting they are such a great match.
http://sw1xad.co.uk/delta-sigma-vs-nos-r2r-dac-designs/
I also find it interesting the very close similarities of the Maverick D1, with Sparklo op amps, and Tesla tube has to NOS Dac's.
The Maverick has a very sensitive USB design. I found great results using a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cable, that isolates the USB power line, along with silver wire, and the USB Disrupter to give a clean 5 volt power supply. It now sounds as good and the coaxial/optical inputs. It also gives you a great listen between the SS, and buffered outputs. Pretty amazing DAC with tons of flexibility for under $400 with discrete Op amps and Tesla Tube. Gives you a good measure of NOS sound.
I also find it interesting the very close similarities of the Maverick D1, with Sparklo op amps, and Tesla tube has to NOS Dac's.
The Maverick has a very sensitive USB design. I found great results using a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cable, that isolates the USB power line, along with silver wire, and the USB Disrupter to give a clean 5 volt power supply. It now sounds as good and the coaxial/optical inputs. It also gives you a great listen between the SS, and buffered outputs. Pretty amazing DAC with tons of flexibility for under $400 with discrete Op amps and Tesla Tube. Gives you a good measure of NOS sound.
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That article is probably one of the least scientific ones I read on the subject, feels like they use a bunch of technical terms to scare you into buying one of their wonderful NOS DACs. There are issues with NOS. While I think that the presence of ultrasonic frequencies in the resulting spectrum that is often used as the main argument against NOS is really less of an issue than it is portrayed the infamous NOS high-frequency droop on redbook is real. A tube buffer softens the sound from my experience, this is probably why the tube-buffered oversampling Maverick sounds similar to NOS.
Where NOS really shines is hi-res material, there is little need for any sort of filtering, digital or analog, for 82.4+ kHz sampling frequencies, so this is the real thing.
Where NOS really shines is hi-res material, there is little need for any sort of filtering, digital or analog, for 82.4+ kHz sampling frequencies, so this is the real thing.
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RGA
Super Member
Audio Note UK was the first out with this and they were selling them back in 1995. Strictly speaking NOS goes back to the very first CD player but it was handled poorly. Everyone else that has a NOS CD player copied Audio Note. Audio Note makes CD replay NOS from $1,450 to $200,000+
Peter Brueninger (formerly of Stereophile Magazine and The Absolute Magazine) of AV Showreports reviews the most expensive set-up here in video form with an interview with AN's owner - and why and how NOS came to be. Peter also discusses an interesting notion that lowering the bitrate (not increasing it) has shown some sonic improvements. We shall see.
RGA
Super Member
Well that is a surprise - never heard anyone else get noise problems from an AN DAC. And it's not really about the subjective preferences of any one individual. Mine included. I have heard Audio Note sound great and sound rather poor depending on where and how it was set-up and this has been true for numerous other brands.
Nevertheless - Peter Breuninger has heard every single brand and has covered more audio shows than probably anyone else. So it's a good place for people to start - the AN DAC 0.1x is $1,450 which isn't obscene. It needs 100kohms or it will sound like ass though so you have to watch what integrated or preamp you intend to use. (Though if you use a preamp with under 100kohm impedance the AN plant or dealer can make an internal adjustment for free to work properly with it).
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kray
HE>i
This is the first i saw this and great to hear. I have a fully modded D2 and feeding it via Audirvana is beautiful. I've got the itch to want to try the Denafrips, but would hate to sell my Maverick and get the Denafrips only to find there's not that much difference.
I learned that while it is multi-bit the TDA1543 isn't technically using the R-2R design internally, it is based on segmented current sources.
mjw21a
Super Member
The Gieseler Groß DAC is nothing short of spectacular and an absolute bargain at $2,350 AUD ($1,885 USD). It's actually stopped me listening to my vinyl it's so good. There are actually a few people have replaced their $10,000 AUD PS Audio Direct Stream with one which says a lot.
To me it sounds like a NOS based Philips TDA though with superior detail to an ESS Sabre based DAC. For me it was mind blowing.
To me it sounds like a NOS based Philips TDA though with superior detail to an ESS Sabre based DAC. For me it was mind blowing.
What does the Gieseler DAC have to do with R2R DACs?
