Current Crop of R-2R DACs
- Thread starter edwyun
- Start date
That looks nicely built. I like the idea of the PS being in a separate case to keep any noise from intruding into the digital section. I would guess it's all linear PS and not switching.
My Parasound D/AC-1000 puts the PS's in the same case as the rest of the DAC but they do build it nicely with 3 linear regulated PS. One for the digital section and a separate PS for each analog channel.
I find it very interesting the way that R2R DAC's are making a come back despite all the advances that the DS DAC's have made. Seems that great tech specs doesn't always equal better sound quality.
Today they use discrete resistor ladders, very labor intensive and difficult to do. Years ago on DAC chips like my PCM63P the resistor ladders were part of the chip and were lazer trimmed for accuracy, I'm sure in a fully automated process. Most folks don't realize that company's like Burr Brown made most of there money making chips for high end military applications. We were lucky back than that some of those chips were just what audio folks needed as well.
I wonder if there are any "not released to the public" chips that were built on the R2R chips of the past that are even better than the PCM63P or the PCM1704. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some "classified" chips that may be released in the future.
BillWojo
My Parasound D/AC-1000 puts the PS's in the same case as the rest of the DAC but they do build it nicely with 3 linear regulated PS. One for the digital section and a separate PS for each analog channel.
I find it very interesting the way that R2R DAC's are making a come back despite all the advances that the DS DAC's have made. Seems that great tech specs doesn't always equal better sound quality.
Today they use discrete resistor ladders, very labor intensive and difficult to do. Years ago on DAC chips like my PCM63P the resistor ladders were part of the chip and were lazer trimmed for accuracy, I'm sure in a fully automated process. Most folks don't realize that company's like Burr Brown made most of there money making chips for high end military applications. We were lucky back than that some of those chips were just what audio folks needed as well.
I wonder if there are any "not released to the public" chips that were built on the R2R chips of the past that are even better than the PCM63P or the PCM1704. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some "classified" chips that may be released in the future.
BillWojo
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Sure.
I’m not sure if it’s so much R2R, but more likely the lack of filtering they enable, if one chooses.
I’ve tried a number of R2R Dacs that had filtering, and/ or custom filters and they don’t have the same organic smooth sound.
Frankly, I wonder if some companies are afraid to put a unit out but doesn’t measure well, because of the lack of filtering.
There could be a number of different reasons one could imagine.
Or at the very least give an option to switch the filtering out.
I’m not sure if it’s so much R2R, but more likely the lack of filtering they enable, if one chooses.
I’ve tried a number of R2R Dacs that had filtering, and/ or custom filters and they don’t have the same organic smooth sound.
Frankly, I wonder if some companies are afraid to put a unit out but doesn’t measure well, because of the lack of filtering.
There could be a number of different reasons one could imagine.
Or at the very least give an option to switch the filtering out.
drdork
New Member
What about something like this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Fever-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
drdork, for 18 bucks and change give it a try. I tried to understand the sellers Chinglish but he made no sense to me at all. I'm not sure if this is self powered by a USB connection or what. I really don't know what to think of it. Maybe post it over at the DIYaudio forum under the DAC subforum. Lots of builders over there and you should get the low down on it.
BillWojo
BillWojo
A filterless DAC is a device that's fundamentally broken. Some boutique shops want to pursue this opportunity because there is market for it but it doesn't change the fact that it is broken and mainstream companies can't release broken designs. High ultrasonic content on the output of such DACs can cause amp and tweeter damage at high volumes. That said, I have no problem with filterless NOS and quite enjoy it time after time.
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kray
HE>i
Very true....
Soekris is fundamentally against NOS, but you're free to install one of the 4 filters banks with basically no filter. The NOS "filter" for the soekris has also been analyzed to confirm it is indeed NOS. Personally my favorite filter on the Soekris is a "quasiNOS" which is extremely close to being NOS but removes some of the bad output of NOS.
*you need a serial to USB cable and open up the soekris to get to it's FPGA but super easy to upgrade firmeware, filters, etc.
kray
HE>i
Very nice!!
After spending some time with the Metrum, it has a real purity and smoothness that really grows on you. Compared to the FL, which has a equally pleasing roundness, and full sound to it. Not as quick on its feet, so to speak, but no slouch.
I personally feel each has it's place.
So I think one of my Fl dacs will find a new home. It will be a real go to be able to switch between 2 high quality dacs, and fine tune my listening to a new level.
The Fl, IMHO is a better alternative to the French DAC, even though it lacks USB, Dongles are available. It's much more refined in its sound.
Given my past experience with ladder dac's, I think the filter less design it what I like.
I personally feel each has it's place.
So I think one of my Fl dacs will find a new home. It will be a real go to be able to switch between 2 high quality dacs, and fine tune my listening to a new level.
The Fl, IMHO is a better alternative to the French DAC, even though it lacks USB, Dongles are available. It's much more refined in its sound.
Given my past experience with ladder dac's, I think the filter less design it what I like.
And another thing I noticed, was the sound stage is forward and "down" on the Metrum, with a slight more separation between the instruments (program dependent to some extent), while the FL's sound stage is farther back, slightly in back of the speakers and "up". And a bit less separation between instruments. However, as mentioned program dependent. Sometimes the spacing is more or less the same.
The both sound a bit unsorted when cold. Not bad, just not their best.
In summary, the FL has a more tube like (like a Citation V) sound, while the Metrum is clear and smooth, analog, but not that roundness. But no hint of digital harsness to be found, even with Great Heils.
The both sound a bit unsorted when cold. Not bad, just not their best.
In summary, the FL has a more tube like (like a Citation V) sound, while the Metrum is clear and smooth, analog, but not that roundness. But no hint of digital harsness to be found, even with Great Heils.
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It’s funny though, why just not offer a option of filterless operation?
I have to wonder with the Schiit R-2r’s, for example- if they offered that option, they would have been a much better option for me.
Because the filter choices, or eliminating them, in many respects voice the product.
And that could be a reference/ marketing point.
See how good our custom filter choices are etc.
Or you have recommendations on what type of source material you have, what filters would sound better, etc.
At least you would have the option
Seems like reviews of Dac's with multiple filters, the least aggressive ones seem to be the ones of choice for the most part.
So, maybe go one step further.....
By the way, Project is probably close to main stream, widely available, fairly large dealer network.
Apparently they didn't find a issue marketing a 'broken' device.
But I get what your saying...
Sometimes you just need to set your opinions aside, and let your ears decide.....
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Based on your comments and the other reviews I have read, I ordered a Pro-ject DAC Box S FL today. I will let you know what I think about it after I have burned it in and tried in both of my systems.
So I spent several hours this past weekend listening to the Pro-ject DAC Box S FL.
Firstly, let me say that this dac does indeed sound different than many dacs I have heard.
I tried it in two different systems. In the system, I listen most often I use a Micromega Mydac. In this system, I did not like the sound of the Pro-ject dac. The Pro-ject presents a softer, more laid back sound compared to the Micomega and sounds like the highs are rolled off. Bass, though is deeper and taughter. However, in this system, it seemed like fine details were being obscured and the timbre of instruments was being altered. While I like a warm, lush sound, I don't like noticeable colorations, even if they are euphonic.
Fortunately, I am satisfied with the Micromega in this system, so I moved the Pro-ject to my other system, which is actually probably more revealing than the above mentioned one, but is not used very often. In this system, I have been using a Musical Fidelity V-Dac. The Pro-ject did much better here and sounded better than the V-Dac. Curiously, I didn't get the same sense of details being obscured or timbres being unaturally altered. Instead, I got a smooth, sweet sound with very good clarity and much better soundstaging than the V-Dac. Only negative here was that I heard an odd clicking sound when cd's were starting up in my transport (a Sony SCD-555es changer) or when I changed tracks.
I have a 30 day return option on the Pro-ject and I will need more time to fully assess it.
If you're considering one of these or anything like it, I highly recommend an extended or home audition in your system before buying.
Firstly, let me say that this dac does indeed sound different than many dacs I have heard.
I tried it in two different systems. In the system, I listen most often I use a Micromega Mydac. In this system, I did not like the sound of the Pro-ject dac. The Pro-ject presents a softer, more laid back sound compared to the Micomega and sounds like the highs are rolled off. Bass, though is deeper and taughter. However, in this system, it seemed like fine details were being obscured and the timbre of instruments was being altered. While I like a warm, lush sound, I don't like noticeable colorations, even if they are euphonic.
Fortunately, I am satisfied with the Micromega in this system, so I moved the Pro-ject to my other system, which is actually probably more revealing than the above mentioned one, but is not used very often. In this system, I have been using a Musical Fidelity V-Dac. The Pro-ject did much better here and sounded better than the V-Dac. Curiously, I didn't get the same sense of details being obscured or timbres being unaturally altered. Instead, I got a smooth, sweet sound with very good clarity and much better soundstaging than the V-Dac. Only negative here was that I heard an odd clicking sound when cd's were starting up in my transport (a Sony SCD-555es changer) or when I changed tracks.
I have a 30 day return option on the Pro-ject and I will need more time to fully assess it.
If you're considering one of these or anything like it, I highly recommend an extended or home audition in your system before buying.
Sure.. I think the more revealing your system is, the more you’re going to appreciate the FL.
Great Heils hide little... so I know I have a real advantage here with my modified AMT 3’s. The mods and non stock woofers really make these speakers something pretty special.
The FL really needs a through warm-up you’re better off leaving it on all the time during break-in, running a signal through it. it definitely sounds different cold over warm. The timbre and decay come into line with a fully warmed unit.
The top should be warm..
The MY DAC, from what I’ve read it’s considered on the bright side so maybe that’s why it works with your first system.
I looked at it years ago, but with Great Heils, I try to avoid any ‘bright’ sounding components, frankly you don’t need them here.
The FL, in many respects it’s sort of like adding a tube component to your system... it may not always work.
Some DACs like speakers are on the bright side because it makes them seem like they have more detail..
The Great Heils are far from bright on their own but they’re going to point out an overly bright component very easily, or harsh sounding material. Not like a horn, they sound sweeter and have a much wider and smoother dispersion. But they won't cover up bad program material. The Fl will, and smooth out crappy 80's cd's,mp3's, computer mp3's (with a dongle) so they are more tolerable. But with a good recording and the 3's, well it's a treat for sure IMHO.
I'm starting to appreciate more the Metrum Octave for taking the NOS sound a step beyond the FL, but I could easily live with the FL, but save for the tubed buffered Maverick DAC, not without NOS...then I'm back listening to my components, instead of the music.
Looking at the 'classic" high def speakers, I think most of them sound their best when used with equipment with similar sound characteristics, and driving characteristic as the equipment made during their same era.
A lot of the new 'high def' speakers, and equipment is brutally honest, and frankly IMHO sound harsh, and many times too thin.
Sure, maybe your "hearing what your missing?", but if you find yourself listening less, what's the point?
Great Heils hide little... so I know I have a real advantage here with my modified AMT 3’s. The mods and non stock woofers really make these speakers something pretty special.
The FL really needs a through warm-up you’re better off leaving it on all the time during break-in, running a signal through it. it definitely sounds different cold over warm. The timbre and decay come into line with a fully warmed unit.
The top should be warm..
The MY DAC, from what I’ve read it’s considered on the bright side so maybe that’s why it works with your first system.
I looked at it years ago, but with Great Heils, I try to avoid any ‘bright’ sounding components, frankly you don’t need them here.
The FL, in many respects it’s sort of like adding a tube component to your system... it may not always work.
Some DACs like speakers are on the bright side because it makes them seem like they have more detail..
The Great Heils are far from bright on their own but they’re going to point out an overly bright component very easily, or harsh sounding material. Not like a horn, they sound sweeter and have a much wider and smoother dispersion. But they won't cover up bad program material. The Fl will, and smooth out crappy 80's cd's,mp3's, computer mp3's (with a dongle) so they are more tolerable. But with a good recording and the 3's, well it's a treat for sure IMHO.
I'm starting to appreciate more the Metrum Octave for taking the NOS sound a step beyond the FL, but I could easily live with the FL, but save for the tubed buffered Maverick DAC, not without NOS...then I'm back listening to my components, instead of the music.
Looking at the 'classic" high def speakers, I think most of them sound their best when used with equipment with similar sound characteristics, and driving characteristic as the equipment made during their same era.
A lot of the new 'high def' speakers, and equipment is brutally honest, and frankly IMHO sound harsh, and many times too thin.
Sure, maybe your "hearing what your missing?", but if you find yourself listening less, what's the point?
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Final_Baton
Well-Known Member
Hey the Project DAC looks like a fun component to try out. I like the idea of a NOS DAC. I don't listen to anything over Redbook audio specs anyway. And with an oldschool chip DAC chip too? count me in . that looks fun and I think I'll try it.
I even have an external 9V linear power supply here that I could use with the Project.
It would have been cool if they had used the 1541 chip, I like the sound of CD players that use that one(but I also like the ones that use 1543)
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