Cylinder head shims- any experiences using them?

[Tim64]

Do people even read my posts? Never once did I mention stacking head gaskets. I have gone over all of this information.

You did not mention it but it was mentioned on post #2 I just wanted to squash such a recommendation. Did the link I left source you the correct shim? or point you in the right direction.

 

[beat_truck]

You did not mention it but it was mentioned on post #2 I just wanted to squash such a recommendation. Did the link I left source you the correct shim? or point you in the right direction.

I would not even consider stacking head gaskets. That would be asking for failure.

That shim is for an '06 and up. Mine is an '04 and appears to be totally different.

The machine shop should already have the one that he specially ordered. I don't really want to piss him off by telling tell him that I don't want it. Thanks for trying to help, though.

 

[arts]

Sorry, when you said deck, I assumed you meant the block.

Yeah, I apologize for not giving any further information,explanation or details in that post.I was in a real hurry to get my show on the road.Fifi,a WWII B29 Superfortress, was in town for her first Canadian visit,and I couldn't wait to meet her BillWojo filled in the details for me in post #33,thanks Bill!

 

[quaddriver]

I gambled and bought an '04 Kia Rio that needed a head gasket for $200. The oil and coolant never mixed. It was pressurizing the cooling system and missing as it warmed up.

I took the head to the machine shop, and they said the head wasn't cracked, but it needed resurfaced a little past the the service limit, so a shim between the block and head gasket is needed. That, and it had 3 slightly bent valves, probably from whoever worked on it before installing the timing belt wrong and attempting to turn it over.

Any thoughts?

you are SUPPOSED to be working on the dodge truck....

but anyways, more than 1 head gasket is called: head gasket blowout - just dont do it. Kias are not very moddable in the US, since its a mitsubishi based motor, perhaps there are options. how about another head from a junk yard? I know if this was a SBC/SBF, places like felpro have legion of head gasket options, including steel shims (which we use in marine engines in lieu of comps) Kia? it might not be so easy.

and the head bolts are TTYs, do not reuse them and pay attention to install method, DIFFERENT from regulars.

 

[beat_truck]

you are SUPPOSED to be working on the dodge truck....

but anyways, more than 1 head gasket is called: head gasket blowout - just dont do it. Kias are not very moddable in the US, since its a mitsubishi based motor, perhaps there are options. how about another head from a junk yard? I know if this was a SBC/SBF, places like felpro have legion of head gasket options, including steel shims (which we use in marine engines in lieu of comps) Kia? it might not be so easy.

and the head bolts are TTYs, do not reuse them and pay attention to install method, DIFFERENT from regulars.

The insurance company is still dragging their feet on the Dodge. No money = no work on the truck. Plus I don't like starting more than one project at a time, especially considering I really have nowhere to work besides the driveway. Considering it is still drivable, it probably won't get worked on until I get my '91 F250 4x4 back together. It has been sitting too long, I have the most money tied up in it, and it is a way nicer truck.

Unfortunately, the shop did the machining before they told me how much work the head needed, which kind of annoys me. If I had known before hand, I would have likely gone a different route. I can't very well tell them I don't want it now. That would be a dick move.

And again, I never even considered stacking more than one gasket. New head bolts are sitting here waiting with the rest of the gaskets and parts.

 

[quaddriver]

well show me what this 'shim' is? IF the head surface is too small...this aint a W motor (obscure reference to the 409) so it has to be level, I picture the 'shim' beign a metal head gasket, as well as the comp...doing both, is in fact stacking head gaskets hence my comments....

and get after those insurance bastiges!

 

[beat_truck]

well show me what this 'shim' is? IF the head surface is too small...this aint a W motor (obscure reference to the 409) so it has to be level, I picture the 'shim' beign a metal head gasket, as well as the comp...doing both, is in fact stacking head gaskets hence my comments....

and get after those insurance bastiges!

Tim64 privided a link in post #38. It isn't for my exact engine, but it's the same concept. It's basically a copper sheet stamped out in the shape of the gasket. The shop swears up and down that they are fine to use, but I am going to get more info before I go with it. Like you, I'm not exactly thrilled with the concept.

 

[hjames]

My impression would be since the head is machined past its service limits, its time for a new/replacement head.
The issue, of course, is that its a (relatively) inexpensive car and probably hard to justify that kind of expense,
which is why you are going the budget route with shims and such.
Can't find a used replacement head anywhere?

 

[beat_truck]

My impression would be since the head is machined past its service limits, its time for a new/replacement head.
The issue, of course, is that its a (relatively) inexpensive car and probably hard to justify that kind of expense,
which is why you are going the budget route with shims and such.
Can't find a used replacement head anywhere?

I could look for another head, but the money is already spent for all the machine work. Plus, most junkyards around here won't even sell a head off from a known good engine. And getting a head from the u-pull-it style yard would be a major gamble. It could be as warped as mine was (or worse) or it could be cracked. Not to mention the money and hassle of taking it off in the yard. A rebuilt head form rockauto.com was just shy of $800, plus core, plus shipping. The car isn't hardly worth that. I'm pretty much stuck with what I have, I'm afraid.

 

[quaddriver]

what about a known good motor then? I cannot imagine there is a huge kia rio demand, and who knows, the tuners might know of some honda super wickey motor that bolts in and has a fart can for an exhaust!

 

[grillebilly]

Milling the head enough to clean the mating surface will not cause any valve/piston interference problems. It will raise the compression a negligible amount. Most of the time if the head is warped a lot, the top is also "bent" and can cause the cam to get tight on OHC engines. If the cam is tight, the head can be straightened before milling. It's done over an extended period in an oven. I've done it many times. Other considerations are cam timing and possible loose belt/chain, but again the tensioner should compensate.
If the cam is not tight put it on and fugetaboutit.

 

[arts]

It's basically a copper sheet stamped out in the shape of the gasket.

For decades Norton and Triumph (and many other) engines used copper head gaskets with no issues.Best part is that you can anneal them (heat to a dull red with a torch, plunge into water,wire bush to remove scale) and then re-use them. They work extremely well,provided the mating surfaces are true and unblemished.

I do know that some modern (composite) gaskets have a thin coating of dissimilar sealer on each side,and in fact have an assembly orientation.One side is meant to face the aluminum head,the other the cast iron block.I don't know if this is the case with your head gasket,or even which order you would install the gasket/shim in this case.

 

[grillebilly]

copper head gaskets

I spray head gaskets with K&W Copper Coat. All of 'em. Even those Teflon Fel-Pro head gaskets. Especially good on the popular multi-layer gaskets like Cometic. I have reused the Cometic head gaskets on the race car a bunch of times, just wash 'em and use a generous coating of Copper Coat. It's almost 14-1 compression.
I wouldn't think twice about using a copper shim under the head gasket. I would use a sealer, though. The manufacturers for copper head gaskets supply them with silicone. It's UltraGrey from Permatex in a no-name tube. I still swear by the K&W spray. I've used it on just about every engine you can think of, from a straight-8 Buick to a blown injected race engine.
If the shim is bothering you check out what many OEM gaskets look like nowadays.

 

[petehall347]

i use wellseal on gaskets. no idea if available outside of the uk . rolls royce developed so has to be good stuff .

 

[beat_truck]

I spray head gaskets with K&W Copper Coat. All of 'em. Even those Teflon Fel-Pro head gaskets. Especially good on the popular multi-layer gaskets like Cometic. I have reused the Cometic head gaskets on the race car a bunch of times, just wash 'em and use a generous coating of Copper Coat. It's almost 14-1 compression.
I wouldn't think twice about using a copper shim under the head gasket. I would use a sealer, though. The manufacturers for copper head gaskets supply them with silicone. It's UltraGrey from Permatex in a no-name tube. I still swear by the K&W spray. I've used it on just about every engine you can think of, from a straight-8 Buick to a blown injected race engine.
If the shim is bothering you check out what many OEM gaskets look like nowadays.
View attachment 1242157

The old gasket was multi layered like that.

I just came from dropping some seals off at the shop. I asked him how far the head was machined past the service limit, and he said 8 thousandths. He showed me the shim, and it wasn't copper. It was silver, so either steel or aluminum. He said that many of his customers have used them, and none have come back complaining. I think I'll just bite the bullet and do it exactly how he tells me to, and hope for the best. I also picked up the Permatex copper gasket spray that he suggested using. Hopefully, Thursday or Friday I will be assembling this thing.

 

[grillebilly]

You will be fine. Make sure the block surface is clean and don't use any abrasives on it. A hand held gasket scraper works best. Just be slow and don't gouge the surface. A rag and some solvent will work getting the last bit pretty enough for your shim.
When all else fails follow the manufacturers instructions.

 

[grillebilly]

The shim may be what is called "spring steel", which is what the inner pieces of a multi-layer gasket is. I'm not a metallurgist but I'm told it has no memory, so it can withstand expansion and contraction.

 

[petehall347]

am sure it will all be fine ..

 

[beat_truck]

Thanks guys. I will let you know how things progress.

 

[Shadowdog]

So they checked that the cam area isn't warped? I think you mentioned they really checked it over so likely okay!