Debut Carbon IGD, sibilance, and arc protractor woes

[JesusGreen]

So I recently got a second hand Debut Carbon with a 2M Red. I noticed a couple of things though, I was experiencing some distortion on certain tracks on certain records - and the 2M also didn't seem to handle mid-range quite as well as I'd hoped. I wasn't sure if the distortion was just an old stylus, so I went to switch out the cart to test, and broke off a couple of the pins in the process, rendering the cart dead.

I decided to buy myself a new cartridge, and after going over my options for several days, I settled on the Grado Prestige Black1. So I ordered it, along with a couple of records: Somethin' Else - Cannonball Adderley, and Come Away With Me - Norah Jones.

I gave them a spin, and I quickly noticed something. The Norah Jones album was filled with bad distortion. It's most noticeable on ch, d, and t sounds and less so on regular "s" sounds, but also noticeable there. If you've ever watched a video or been in a call with someone who was way too close to their microphone and talking too loud into it - that's the kind of distortion I'm hearing. (I initially thought it was just this album - but later confirmed that I was experiencing sibilance and IGD with a good amount of my records)

Now I suspect an alignment issue, so I've been trying to get my cartridge aligned. When I first started, I had no idea what I was doing, so I spent a good 15-20 hours completely not understanding alignment whatsoever and getting nowhere with it.

Eventually I found a slightly better explained tutorial that said that you're meant to align the lines on the protractor with the cartridge body, and so began attempting that. So using Baerwald, I did that, but it didn't help, I was still experiencing sibilance and IGD.

I noticed though that with the sides of the cartridge aligned, the cantilever was VERY off, pointing significantly to the right.

So I instead tried to align by the cantilever. It took me a long time, since I have very unsteady hands, and horrible eyesight even with my glasses, but after probably 8-9 hours of going back and forth, I got the cantilever aligned using Baerwald.

The overall sound was better, but I was still plagued by sibilance and IGD. It was then that I began searching up the issue, and discovered several threads where people with my same turntable complained about these issues with the original 2M Red cartridge. The solution they all found to resolve the issue? Using a custom arc protractor rather than Baerwald.

So I downloaded Conrad Hoffman's arc protractor program, and put in the following numbers that I managed to find for my turntable:

Pivot-to-spindle: 200mm
Inner groove radius: 59.4103mm
Outer groove radius: 143.926mm

Which gave me: 18.5mm overhang, null points: 65mm and 119.1mm, and an offset angle of 24.917*

These all seem correct for the Debut Carbon.

Now the instructions with the program say that the first step is to ensure the stylus follows the arc. If the stylus is on the arc at the outer edge, but is short of the arc near the spindle, then you move the cartridge further out - and if its on the arc at the outer edge, but goes over the arc near the spindle, you move the cartridge further in towards the pivot.

So I did that, but then..

Question 1) After getting the stylus to follow the arc, it says to align the cartridge body or cantilever to the lines around the null points. So I try to do that, but as soon as I get the cantilever aligned to both points, it no longer follows the arc precisely all along. Should it? Or is the arc just there to show me roughly how far forward the cartridge needs to be - and then to be disregarded once you work on aligning the cantilever/cartridge body?

Question 2) My cantilever isn't centered, it's angled out slightly. Should I adjust azimuth to take this into account? If I adjust so that the cantilever and its reflection appear straight, then the cartridge is angled to one side quite a bit. If I make the cartridge straight, then the cantilever is off a little (albeit not as much as the cartridge seems to be off when I do the opposite).

Question 3) Is there some trick I'm missing to alignment that allows me to know which screw I need to move forwards/back and by how much? I get that I can slightly rotate the protractor or platter until the cantilever seems straight, and then see whether the cantilever is in front of or behind the point - but I don't get how I'm supposed to know which screw needs moving from that point? I've spent the last 7 hours trying with no luck to get this aligned, and I feel like even for alignment 7 hours is way too long - I must not be understanding something correctly.

Question 4) Should I stick with the numbers I input above? Or should I be using the DIN measurements for inner/outer groove radius even if it gives me a slightly different overhang to my turntable specs?

Thanks

 

[patient_ot]

You can align both of those carts 'til you're blue in the face and they will still result in IGD on certain records. Anything with narrow deadwax, or the last track on the side with female vox is going to give you problems. Look for a cart with a more advanced stylus shape than a basic elliptical, then try your custom arc protractor.

Not sure what you mean by "angled out"? Pics? If the cart was manufactured poorly, send it back and get a replacement.

 

[JesusGreen]

You can align both of those carts 'til you're blue in the face and they will still result in IGD on certain records. Anything with narrow deadwax, or the last track on the side with female vox is going to give you problems. Look for a cart with a more advanced stylus shape than a basic elliptical, then try your custom arc protractor.

The thing is this is a new issue for me.

On my old crappy Ion USBTT with it's $15 Numark groovetool conical cartridge, I had no such IGD or sibilance on these same records when it was aligned correctly. The thing is, alignment on that TT was a breeze since it was one of those loose Technics clones where you set the stylus to be 52mm from the ring around the headshell and you're aligned. Same thing with the AT95e, I only noticed that sort of distortion when it was poorly aligned - the moment I got it aligned it sounded very pleasing to my ears. I'm sure there was probably some IGD and sibilance with them too - but nothing that stood out to my untrained ears. In this case, it sounds so bad and it's so obvious that if I hadn't ruled them out, I'd have thought my speakers were on the way out.

So unless the Grado is a //much// worse tracker than a $15 Numark cartridge and an AT95e, I think my alignment is the bigger issue. Surely I should at least get it tracking as good as those two carts were - considering the Numark is a conical and the AT95e is an elliptical.

Not sure what you mean by "angled out"? Pics? If the cart was manufactured poorly, send it back and get a replacement.

I don't think I'll have much luck getting a replacement since I bought it from a tiny one-man online store. I could order a new stylus, but I just bought it and I'm very low on funds right now, so I'd rather not if I can get this one working.

Here's a picture of what I mean:

 

[patient_ot]

Did you pay with paypal? Was it like that out of the box? If so, send it back and ask for a refund, that looks off. If the seller gives you static, submit a claim to paypal. If the stylus was straight out of the box and you did that, probably a combo of wrong antiskate setting and/or shoddy Grado build quality.

Re: those super cheap carts and plastic turntables, everything sounds muffled out of them IME, they are good at glossing over flaws but you also miss out on musical detail. To me they sound like a heavy blanket over the speakers.

 

[JesusGreen]

Did you pay with paypal? Was it like that out of the box? If so, send it back and ask for a refund, that looks off. If the seller gives you static, submit a claim to paypal. If the stylus was straight out of the box and you did that, probably a combo of wrong antiskate setting and/or shoddy Grado build quality.

Re: those super cheap carts and plastic turntables, everything sounds muffled out of them IME, they are good at glossing over flaws but you also miss out on musical detail. To me they sound like a heavy blanket over the speakers.

Paid by card. The cantilever was like that out of the box. Unfortunately I bought it about a month ago, and have been using it since, so I'm going to have a tough time convincing the seller that it wasn't my doing.

 

[patient_ot]

Paid by card. The cantilever was like that out of the box. Unfortunately I bought it about a month ago, and have been using it since, so I'm going to have a tough time convincing the seller that it wasn't my doing.

Lesson learned then. I wouldn't use that on my records personally.

 

[majick47]

Get another Grado stylus before you play any more records.

 

[JesusGreen]

Lesson learned then. I wouldn't use that on my records personally.

Get another Grado stylus before you play any more records.

Fair enough. Looks like that's what I'll have to do then. I'll see about getting another Black1 stylus, or potentially waiting a while and getting one of the better styli up the range, or an 8MZ or something.

 

[Freddymac2]

What was the source of the new records, bad re-masters can be bad, do you have a stylus Gauge to measure Tracking force. That Grado doesn't look that bad, but I do not start tweaking my cantilever to straiten them. Try re-setting the red now that you have learned a few things.

 

[JesusGreen]

What was the source of the new records, bad re-masters can be bad, do you have a stylus Gauge to measure Tracking force. That Grado doesn't look that bad, but I do not start tweaking my cantilever to straiten them. Try re-setting the red now that you have learned a few things.

They're pressed by Blue Note Records in Europe I believe. I don't think they're remasters. It's definitely possible the Norah Jones record is a bad pressing, but nonetheless the sibilance issue persists even on old records I've had for a while where I heard no sibilance with my AT95e.

The 2M Red is dead unfortunately, I pulled the pins out the back when trying to remove it. Given that it was second hand I'm not too sure about the condition of the stylus either - so even if there is some way to fix a cart after the pins have been pulled out, I'd rather buy a better Grado stylus than replace the one on the red since I'm not quite as fond of the Red's sound as I am of the Grado. (It's a good cart mind you, just not to my personal taste)

I do have a stylus gauge, and have tested a range of tracking force from 1.5g to 2.05g - the tracking force seemed to have no effect on the sibilance, although it did affect the bass response and I found around 1.65g, a little higher than the 1.5g that Grado recommend, seemed to be the sweet spot.

I actually took another look at my Grado under a magnifying glass, and interestingly enough, while the cantilever is leaning to the right, the diamond itself is not. The diamond is almost parallel with the cartridge body, but actually a couple of degrees off to the left. I may have a go actually setting azimuth in the opposite direction to the direction I'd been turning it, and see if that helps, as I've not tried that yet.

After that I think I'll re-align it with a simple Baerwald again since I don't seem to be having much luck with the arc protractor (and Baerwald seemed to sound better than the best I got it aligned with the arc anyway) and just stick to playing some of my older records for now until I can get a new stylus. I think I'll see if I can save up for the 8MZ, that way I'm actually upgrading rather than just getting a replacement. Although the question now is whether or not I can actually get an 8MZ here in Europe..

---

Edit: I just gave that ago, adjusting the azimuth to account for the angle of the diamond, and then re-aligning with Baerwald. Somewhat to my surprise it actually helped, quite significantly! On one side of that Norah Jones album is the worst offender, a song called the Nearness of You which is completely filled with sibilants. "sss" and "ch" and "th" and "t" sounds all throughout the whole song.

With arc protractor alignment + completely level headshell + 2nd rung anti-skate: All those sounds sounded like harsh speaker clipping.

With Baerwald alignment (using the cartridge body NOT the cantilever, since the cantilever is actually angled the opposite way to the stylus diamond) + headshell angled by a couple of degrees to account for the diamond, no anti-skate yet: The sibilance was still there, but no longer sounded like harsh speaker clipping, just like strong sibilance.

Now I added the anti-skate back, and half of those sibilant distortion passages completely disappeared. I'm no longer hearing it on "ch" and "t" sounds really like I was before, just on the harsh S sounds.

Still doesn't sound particularly great on that Norah Jones album, but sounds a lot better than before. That tells me that it probably is the azimuth and the twisted cantilever that was causing it to be so harsh. I could spend some time tweaking the azimuth more until I get it as close to perfect as possible, but with my poor eyesight and lack of steady hands I think I'm just going to leave it be for now - avoid playing any records I value too much with it, and save up for that 8MZ stylus (or if I can't get that in Europe, then maybe a Blue1 stylus or something)

 

[808_state]

Check out the YouTube channel "Hivinylnews". That guy gets amazing (if not humbling) performance from budget carts and has multiple comparisons by price & brand. He also has step by steps for setup. I think the Nagaoka MP-110 was the clear winner in the price range of the 2M Red or Blue.

 

[JesusGreen]

Check out the YouTube channel "Hivinylnews". That guy gets amazing (if not humbling) performance from budget carts and has multiple comparisons by price & brand. He also has step by steps for setup. I think the Nagaoka MP-110 was the clear winner in the price range of the 2M Red or Blue.

Ah I love his reviews. It's actually his channel that made me pick up the Grado! The Nagaoka was out of my price range and the Grado was the recommendation in the range I could afford.

I actually didn't know he had a setup video though, I'll have to check it out as he explains things in a really nice way, so it's probably better than the ones I've seen.

 

[808_state]

Ah I love his reviews. It's actually his channel that made me pick up the Grado! The Nagaoka was out of my price range and the Grado was the recommendation in the range I could afford.

I actually didn't know he had a setup video though, I'll have to check it out as he explains things in a really nice way, so it's probably better than the ones I've seen.

I'm watching his recent shootout of the AT-LP120, Project Primary and Teac 300. I was really blown away by how good he got the 2M Blue to sound in his review. I really hope he can find a way to review more pricey carts in the future. I would say if you can find a way to get the coin together go for the MP-110. Ortofon makes nice carts but with critical listening I don't think they are as universal to all tables as some would lead you to believe. Cart to arm matching is essential.

 

[JesusGreen]

I'm watching his recent shootout of the AT-LP120, Project Primary and Teac 300. I was really blown away by how good he got the 2M Blue to sound in his review. I really hope he can find a way to review more pricey carts in the future. I would say if you can find a way to get the coin together go for the MP-110. Ortofon makes nice carts but with critical listening I don't think they are as universal to all tables as some would lead you to believe. Cart to arm matching is essential.

I liked that video, I'm glad he touched on the speed thing. That's something I quickly noticed when looking at vintage TTs on Ebay - just how poor the speed stability and wow/flutter specs are for a lot of the modern entry level TTs vs even some you can pick up for like $30 used. The only reason I even own an entry level modern TT myself is because after spending money on one vintage TT only to find it needed repairs I didn't want to risk that amount of money again on something that may or may not work, and a Debut Carbon Esprit popped up for under half price on my local equivalent of Ebay, so I grabbed it.

I don't think I'll be replacing the Grado quite so soon though as I bought it literally a month ago in fact it's my 2nd cartridge purchase in about 2-3 months, the reason I didn't go for the MP-110 at the time is because here where I live (Poland) it's about $160, vs about $60 for the Grado. I'm honestly so strapped for cash that I could barely justify the $40 stylus replacement for my Grado right now, nevermind a $160 cart. Most things are usually 3-4x cheaper here in Poland, and cartridges and tech are one of those exceptions, so that $160 price tag to me would be like a $480-640 price tag in the US if you equate the price to other things I'd get for that amount of cash - in fact $160 is more than double what I spend on food in an entire month! On top of that I think the Nagaoka is more of a medium compliance cart - I think high compliance carts are generally a better match for the low mass tonearm my Debut Carbon has.

Aside from the the harsh distortion issue though I have zero complaints with the Grado, it sounds exactly like how I want a cartridge to sound, and made me for the first time prefer a lot of my songs on vinyl to their digital equivalent in sound and not just for the experience of vinyl (didn't have that before with the AT95e, 2M Red, or the cheapo conical cart I had first)!

I do think it's more the wonky cantilever/stylus than the cart itself tracking //that// badly, I get that Grados aren't the world's best trackers, and so it's never going to be perfect, but perfect isn't what I'm striving for and I'm fairly confident I can get this cart sounding the way I want with a new stylus and proper alignment. The fact that my recent azimuth adjustment got rid of like half the sibilance tells me that I'm probably already quite close to getting it to where I want.

Assuming that I do get it sounding the way I want I do actually have an upgrade path in mind currently: Grado Black1 -> 8MZ Stylus -> Gold1 (or better if I can afford) body. It's a nice way for me to satisfy the constant urge to upgrade something without my previous purchases going unused, and it also allows me to split it up into more manageable increments cost wise.

 

[808_state]

I liked that video, I'm glad he touched on the speed thing. That's something I quickly noticed when looking at vintage TTs on Ebay - just how poor the speed stability and wow/flutter specs are for a lot of the modern entry level TTs vs even some you can pick up for like $30 used. The only reason I even own an entry level modern TT myself is because after spending money on one vintage TT only to find it needed repairs I didn't want to risk that amount of money again on something that may or may not work, and a Debut Carbon Esprit popped up for under half price on my local equivalent of Ebay, so I grabbed it.

I don't think I'll be replacing the Grado quite so soon though as I bought it literally a month ago in fact it's my 2nd cartridge purchase in about 2-3 months, the reason I didn't go for the MP-110 at the time is because here where I live (Poland) it's about $160, vs about $60 for the Grado. I'm honestly so strapped for cash that I could barely justify the $40 stylus replacement for my Grado right now, nevermind a $160 cart. Most things are usually 3-4x cheaper here in Poland, and cartridges and tech are one of those exceptions, so that $160 price tag to me would be like a $480-640 price tag in the US if you equate the price to other things I'd get for that amount of cash - in fact $160 is more than double what I spend on food in an entire month! On top of that I think the Nagaoka is more of a medium compliance cart - I think high compliance carts are generally a better match for the low mass tonearm my Debut Carbon has.

Aside from the the harsh distortion issue though I have zero complaints with the Grado, it sounds exactly like how I want a cartridge to sound, and made me for the first time prefer a lot of my songs on vinyl to their digital equivalent in sound and not just for the experience of vinyl (didn't have that before with the AT95e, 2M Red, or the cheapo conical cart I had first)!

I do think it's more the wonky cantilever/stylus than the cart itself tracking //that// badly, I get that Grados aren't the world's best trackers, and so it's never going to be perfect, but perfect isn't what I'm striving for and I'm fairly confident I can get this cart sounding the way I want with a new stylus and proper alignment. The fact that my recent azimuth adjustment got rid of like half the sibilance tells me that I'm probably already quite close to getting it to where I want.

Assuming that I do get it sounding the way I want I do actually have an upgrade path in mind currently: Grado Black1 -> 8MZ Stylus -> Gold1 (or better if I can afford) body. It's a nice way for me to satisfy the constant urge to upgrade something without my previous purchases going unused, and it also allows me to split it up into more manageable increments cost wise.

I can totally understand the strapped for cash feeling and for that reason I would look into getting a warranty replacement for your stylus, it just shouldn't be that bent for a new one and I doubt that you've even used it enough to cause that, it's just poor quality control. As far as increments I would say just hold your cash for now and keep setting it aside for the best stuff you can afford later on. Vintage tables are great (the only thing I own) but it requires research in order find out which ones are the least trouble/most bang for your buck. I bought my first "real" table about 4 years ago (Yamaha PF-800) and while the price hurt at the time, it has been a rock solid performer and I can't think of a reason I would ever let it go and it's even increased in value since I bought it. As the hivinyl guy points out, by saving up a little more beyond the cost of an LP-120, you can get an authentic SL-1200 from Japan that is vastly superior to most new tables, and assuming you take care of it you could sell it for more than you paid for it later. I'm a sort of Yamaha purist/fanatic but I recognize that Technics absolutely knew what they were doing.

 

[patient_ot]

Re: HiViNyws:

I find his reviews very interesting and entertaining, even if I might not agree with them 100%. I do subscribe to his channel.

One thing I have noticed, is that when he tests carts, he uses a variety of test tracks from different records, sort of like audiophile demo tracks. He's not playing demanding, aggressively cut records with narrow deadwax and really pushing these carts to the limit IMHO.

This is why he did not mention inner groove tracking/distortion on any of the reviews, nor did he mention the hum problems that plague Grado carts. I think this is important to know but neither of these things may be a factor on his system, with his ears, with the vinyl he is feeding these carts. I could see someone buying these carts he talks up and being very disappointed because they don't play nice with their system or do what they need them to do.

The biggest takeaway from the cart reviews is that he lights clear highs and lows with warm, front and center midrange for the cartridges. Hence why Grado and Nagaoka carts got the highest marks for the most part in all his groups of cart reviews.

 

[patient_ot]

On top of that I think the Nagaoka is more of a medium compliance cart - I think high compliance carts are generally a better match for the low mass tonearm my Debut Carbon has.

Yes. The effective mass of the Carbon tonearm is about 6g. High compliance carts are the way to go. I'm sure some people have made the MP-110 work with a weight plate on the headshell or whatever, but it's a poor match by itself without some sort of mod or adding mass to the tonearm. There is a reason Project ships those TTs with high compliance Ortofon carts.

 

[patient_ot]

I'm watching his recent shootout of the AT-LP120, Project Primary and Teac 300.

That is probably his best review yet. He actually took the time to point out the downsides and manufacturing flaws of those products. Many other reviews of them don't. People only figure out that they all have major problems after owning them for awhile and coming to the forums.

 

[808_state]

That is probably his best review yet. He actually took the time to point out the downsides and manufacturing flaws of those products. Many other reviews of them don't. People only figure out that they all have major problems after owning them for awhile and coming to the forums.

Definitely and as I was trying to convey to the OP, the takeaway was that with a little patience you can do far better with your money and bypass the frustration associated with "budget" tables. You have to bluntly ask yourself how much your time is worth. I really hope he gets into higher price stuff to the point of discerning what is an actual upgrade vs. simple price inflation. He's certainly got the gear to do it.