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Deciding what caps to use

Discussion in 'Pioneer Audio' started by NOSaint94, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. NOSaint94

    NOSaint94 Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Hey guys

    So I am trying to decide what caps to use in the 737. I was thinking of using Nichicon PW as much as possible in the power supply and Nichicon FG for the audio path. What do y'all think? Would you guys have any recommendations for something better? Cost doesn't really bother me I am more concerned about getting the best quality and best sounding caps :yes:
     
  2. Marty Socal

    Marty Socal Active Member

    Messages:
    405
    Here's a link to the post with the latest SX-737 recommended recap list by Mark:king: I could find. It's from 2009, so some may need to be changed:
    http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2404311&postcount=36

    Here's the complete post it came from:
    http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=199020&highlight=sx737

    Any updates, and I'll edit my thread with recap list links to suit.

    EDIT:
    Changed my Recap list post to link to this thread, now that it has an updated, although preliminary, list by Mark!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  3. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time Subscriber

    Messages:
    20,537
    Location:
    Bensenville,Illinois
    Quite a few need to be changed. working on it...
     
  4. NOSaint94

    NOSaint94 Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Awesome thanks a bunch Mark :D
     
  5. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time Subscriber

    Messages:
    20,537
    Location:
    Bensenville,Illinois
    (now complete)

    AWX071 c5 220 6 647-UPW1E221MPD

    AWR057,8 PWR supply
    AWR057,8 c7 1000 50 ceb 647-UPW1H102MHD
    AWR057,8 c8 330 50 cea 647-upw1h331mpd
    AWR057,8 c9 330 50 cea 647-upw1h331mpd
    AWR057,8 c10 330 50 cea 647-upw1h331mpd
    AWR057,8 c11 220 16 cea 647-UPW1V221MPD
    AWR057,8 c12 220 50 cea 647-upw1h221mpd
    AWR057,8 c13 100 50 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD
    AWR057,8 c16 220 16 cea 647-UPW1V221MPD
    AWR057,8 c17 22 25 cea 647-UPW1h220mdd
    AWR057,8 c18 100 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED
    AWR057,8 c19 100 35 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD
    AWR057,8 q1 2sd313 512-KSC2073TU
    AWR057,8 q2 2sc945 512-KSC2383YTA
    AWR057,8 q3 2sd313 512-KSC2073TU
    AWR057,8 q4 2sc945 512-KSC2383YTA
    AWR057,8 d1 sr3am-4 512-1N5404
    AWR057,8 d2 sr3am-4 512-1N5404
    AWR057,8 d2 sr3am-4 512-1N5404
    AWR057,8 d4 sr3am-4 512-1N5404
    AWR057,8 d5 1s1886 512-1n4004
    AWR057,8 d6 1s1886 512-1n4004
    AWR057,8 d7 1s1886 512-1n4004
    AWR057,8 d8 wz-130 512-1N5243B
    AWR057,8 d9 wz-140 512-1N5244B



    AWM025 PROT
    AWM025 c1 0.22 10 cssa 598-DSF050J224
    AWM025 c2 0.22 10 cssa 598-DSF050J224
    AWM025 c3 330 6 cea 647-upw1c331mpd
    AWM025 c4 330 6 cea 647-upw1c331mpd
    AWM025 c5 4.7 25 cea 647-UPW1H4R7MDD
    AWM025 c6 100 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED
    AWM025 q1 2sc869 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWM025 q2 2sc869 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWM025 q3 2sc945 only if bad 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWM025 q4 2sc945 only if bad 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWM025 q5 2sa733 only if bad 512-KSA992FBU
    AWM025 q6 2sc945 512-KSC2383YTA
    AWM025 q7 2sc1384 512-KSC2690AYS
    chassis prot relay 653-LY4F-DC24



    AWH033 pwr amp
    AWH033 c1 0.33 25 cssa 598-DSF050J334
    AWH033 c2 0.33 25 cssa 598-DSF050J334
    AWH033 c7 220 6 cea 647-UPW1E221MPD
    AWH033 c8 220 6 cea 647-UPW1E221MPD
    AWH033 c9 47 35 cea 647-UPW1H470MED
    AWH033 c10 47 35 cea 647-UPW1H470MED
    AWH033 c19 22 10 cea 647-UPW1a220mdd
    AWH033 c20 22 10 cea 647-UPW1a220mdd
    AWH033 vr1 100 652-3386F-1-101LF
    AWH033 vr2 100 652-3386F-1-101LF
    AWH033 vr3 10k 652-3296Y-1-103LF
    AWH033 vr4 10k 652-3296Y-1-103LF
    AWH033 q1 2sa726 512-KSA992FBU
    AWH033 q2 2sa726 512-KSA992FBU
    AWH033 q3 2sa726 512-KSA992FBU
    AWH033 q4 2sa726 512-KSA992FBU
    AWH033 q5 2sc1451 512-KSC3503DSTU
    AWH033 q6 2sc1451 512-KSC3503DSTU
    AWH033 q7 2sd357 512-KSC2690AYS
    AWH033 q8 2sc357 512-KSC2690AYS
    AWH033 q9 2sb527 512-KSA1220AYS
    AWH033 q10 2sb527 512-KSA1220AYS
    AWH033 q11 2sd370 863-MJ21194G
    AWH033 q12 2sd370 863-MJ21194G
    AWH033 q13 2sb530 863-MJ21193G
    AWH033 q14 2sb530 863-MJ21193G

    AWG030 CTL AMP
    AWG030 c1 1 25 csza 647-UKL1H010KDDANA
    AWG030 c2 1 25 csza 647-UKL1H010KDDANA
    AWG030 c5 100 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED
    AWG030 c6 100 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED
    AWG030 c9 4.7 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    AWG030 c10 4.7 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    AWG030 c17 4.7 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    AWG030 c18 4.7 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    AWG030 c19 4.7 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    AWG030 c20 4.7 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    AWG030 c21 47 10 cea 647-UPW1H470MED
    AWG030 c22 47 10 cea 647-UPW1H470MED
    AWG030 c23 2.2 25 cssa 647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
    AWG030 c24 2.2 25 cssa 647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
    AWG030 c29 100 35 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD
    AWG030 q1 2sa726 512-KSA992FBU
    AWG030 q2 2sa726 512-KSA992FBU
    AWG030 q3 2sc1312 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWG030 q4 2sc1312 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWG030 q5 2sc1312 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWG030 q6 2sc1312 512-KSC1845FTA



    AWM066 MIC
    AWM066 c2 220 35 cea 647-UPW1V221MPD
    AWM066 c3 0.47 16 cssa 598-DSF050J474
    AWM066 c6 220 6 cea 647-UPW1E221MPD
    AWM066 c7 0.47 50 ceanl 598-DSF050J474
    AWM066 q1 2sc1344 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWM066 q2 2sc1344 512-KSC1845FTA

    AWF011 PHONO
    AWF011 c1 1 25 cssa 647-UKL1H010MDDANA
    AWF011 c2 1 25 cssa 647-UKL1H010MDDANA
    AWF011 c7 330 6 cea 647-upw1c331mpd
    AWF011 c8 330 6 cea 647-upw1c331mpd
    AWF011 c11 3.3 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H3R3MDDANA
    AWF011 c12 3.3 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H3R3MDDANA
    AWF011 c17 100 25 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD
    AWF011 c18 220 16 cea 647-UPW1V221MPD
    AWF011 Q1 2sa725 512-KSA992FBU
    AWF011 Q2 2sa725 512-KSA992FBU
    AWF011 Q3 2sc1313 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWF011 Q4 2sc1313 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWF011 Q5 2sc1313 512-KSC1845FTA
    AWF011 Q6 2sc1313 512-KSC1845FTA


    AWE043 TUNER
    AWE043 c25 4.7 25 cea 647-UPW1H4R7MDD
    AWE043 c27 10 16 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD
    AWE043 c28 0.47 50 cea 598-DSF050J474
    AWE043 c33 1 50 cea 647-UPW1H010MDD
    AWE043 c38 0.33 10 cssa 598-DSF050J334
    AWE043 c39 1 10 cssa 647-UPW1H010MDD
    AWE043 c40 0.47 10 cssa 598-DSF050J474
    AWE043 c49 0.47 50 cea 598-DSF050J474
    AWE043 c50 0.47 50 cea 598-DSF050J474
    AWE043 c58 4.7 25 cea 647-UPW1H4R7MDD
    AWE043 c59 47 6 cea 647-UPW1H470MED
    AWE043 c64 10 16 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD
    AWE043 c66 0.1 25 cssa 598-DSF050J
    AWE043 c67 220 16 cea 647-UPW1E221MPD
    AWE043 c68 100 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED
    AWE043 q8 2sa725 512-KSA992FBU
    AWE043 q9 2sa725 512-KSA992FBU

    mouser parts list importer text block:

    647-UPW1E221MPD


    647-UPW1H102MHD
    647-upw1h331mpd
    647-upw1h331mpd
    647-upw1h331mpd
    647-UPW1V221MPD
    647-upw1h221mpd
    647-UPW1H101MPD
    647-UPW1V221MPD
    647-UPW1h220mdd
    647-UPW1E101MED
    647-UPW1H101MPD
    512-KSC2073TU
    512-KSC2383YTA
    512-KSC2073TU
    512-KSC2383YTA
    512-1N5404
    512-1N5404
    512-1N5404
    512-1N5404
    512-1n4004
    512-1n4004
    512-1n4004
    512-1N5243B
    512-1N5244B




    598-DSF050J224
    598-DSF050J224
    647-upw1c331mpd
    647-upw1c331mpd
    647-UPW1H4R7MDD
    647-UPW1E101MED
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSC2383YTA
    512-KSC2690AYS
    653-LY4F-DC24




    598-DSF050J334
    598-DSF050J334
    647-UPW1E221MPD
    647-UPW1E221MPD
    647-UPW1H470MED
    647-UPW1H470MED
    647-UPW1a220mdd
    647-UPW1a220mdd
    652-3386F-1-101LF
    652-3386F-1-101LF
    652-3296Y-1-103LF
    652-3296Y-1-103LF
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSC3503DSTU
    512-KSC3503DSTU
    512-KSC2690AYS
    512-KSC2690AYS
    512-KSA1220AYS
    512-KSA1220AYS
    863-MJ21194G
    863-MJ21194G
    863-MJ21193G
    863-MJ21193G


    647-UKL1H010KDDANA
    647-UKL1H010KDDANA
    647-UPW1E101MED
    647-UPW1E101MED
    647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA
    647-UPW1H470MED
    647-UPW1H470MED
    647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
    647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
    647-UPW1H101MPD
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA




    647-UPW1V221MPD
    598-DSF050J474
    647-UPW1E221MPD
    598-DSF050J474
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA


    647-UKL1H010MDDANA
    647-UKL1H010MDDANA
    647-upw1c331mpd
    647-upw1c331mpd
    647-UKL1H3R3MDDANA
    647-UKL1H3R3MDDANA
    647-UPW1H101MPD
    647-UPW1V221MPD
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA
    512-KSC1845FTA



    647-UPW1H4R7MDD
    647-UPW1H100MDD
    598-DSF050J474
    647-UPW1H010MDD
    598-DSF050J334
    647-UPW1H010MDD
    598-DSF050J474
    598-DSF050J474
    598-DSF050J474
    647-UPW1H4R7MDD
    647-UPW1H470MED
    647-UPW1H100MDD
    598-DSF050J
    647-UPW1E221MPD
    647-UPW1E101MED
    512-KSA992FBU
    512-KSA992FBU

    EDIT 1/2/2015 CHANGED trimpots to types 3386F and 3296Y
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
    paultlaw likes this.
  6. Ths364

    Ths364 Super Member

    Messages:
    4,704
    Location:
    Austin
    You might consider the Silmic II's for the audio path, but I'm a big fan of the Nichicon stuff also. I have the SX-737 also and I like it very much, so I'd love to hear what you think after the recap. Mine is still going strong but it could need caps any minute.
     
  7. avionic

    avionic " Black Knights" Subscriber

    Messages:
    34,152
    Location:
    Fort Dodge, Iowa
    Follow Marks recomendations to the "T" and you will have a super sounding and reliable piece of gear.
     
  8. samc777

    samc777 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    302
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I notice that MTF has chosen the nichicon KL series Low Leakage Current style of caps over the nichicon Audio Equipment series such as KA, KZ, FG KT etc.

    I trust MTF totally and value his judgment but what does Mark know that we don't? :music:

    Dave
     
  9. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time Subscriber

    Messages:
    20,537
    Location:
    Bensenville,Illinois
    There are locations where leakage will manifest in noise, low level hiss.

    And you are entirely welcome to try out your cap selections as you wish. I might end up duplicating it, testing it and adopting it, depending...

    I started out not specifying or using KL caps (although most stuff didn't specify low noise or leakage), and did an a:b comparison in some units where the difference COUNTED, and had the difference slapped in my face(ears) like an old cold smelly fish.

    KL caps go in where solid aluminum, tantalum, or NL specified caps. MOST of the solid aluminum and tantalum caps were done as a size and perhaps quality improvement measure - before their faults were recognized.

    So now I don't try to figure out if a KL is needed in a particular position where one of those three came out of, because the cost differential is not enough to justify the time and risk of experimenting and the reverse engineering that position.

    So what I do know (besides studying engineering, and doing this since the 70's?) boils down to just literally BTDT, got the T-shirt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
    dlucy likes this.
  10. larryderouin

    larryderouin Do I get Food, Med's, or more gear this Month? Subscriber

    Messages:
    19,333
    Location:
    Glen Burnie Md.
    I did my 737 last year using MTF's list, and the difference was substantial. UPW and UKL's thru out. The only place I didn't use them was where he spec'ed the panasonic ECQ's and the Main Filter caps. It's run daily and hasn't hiccuped once. I actually like it better than my 939. Having a 434, 737, and 939 now and a 1010 a year ago, the 737 is probably the best bang for the buck out of the whole series. It's not a "blow the doors off the neighbor's house" unit but it does pretty much everything well for "in the house" listening. (I don't listen to loud stuff anymore either, since hitting 58).

    Larry
     
  11. larryderouin

    larryderouin Do I get Food, Med's, or more gear this Month? Subscriber

    Messages:
    19,333
    Location:
    Glen Burnie Md.
    To update from a year ago. The 737 continues to run circles around most everything else in the house that is SOLID STATE. The exception is the SX-939 (total wattage). Other than that the 737 is the clear winner here. The combination of UPW and UKL caps that MTF selects is a 100% winner. I can go no source connected on any source (except FM or AM), turn the volume up all the way and get just the slightest HINT of HISS from about 2 ft. ABSOLUTELY NO HUM! It's like the Model "T" in some ways, simple to operate, fairly simple to fix, comes in one color (2 if you count the 7730), and is universally popular, relatively cheap.

    You could probably spend weeks researching caps(or longer), and spend tens of dollars more for them (boutique or Bling caps), but in the end, it quite possibly wouldn't sound any better than one with the UPW's and UKL's (with the odd ECQ in it), Fairchild transistors and ONSEMI Outputs in a STOCK replacement configuration.

    I've done the same for my 424, 434, 939, and 780, and they've all improved but none so much as the 737 did. Like I said in my last post, it's quite possibly the best bang for the buck receiver that PIONEER ever developed and built, and 40 years later it's still knocking down doors, kicking ass, and taking names!!!

    .
     
    audiojones and dlucy like this.
  12. Young46

    Young46 New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    Houston,Texas
     
  13. zebulon1

    zebulon1 Into Phase Linear's lately Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,774
    Location:
    Las Vegas Nevada
    KEMET 5mm lead spacing
    80-R82DC3220DQ60J .22uf 63v
    80-R82DC3330AA60J .33uf 63v
    80-SMR5474J50J0416 .47uf 50v

    Or:
    WIMA 5mm lead spacing
    505-MKS2C032201BKI00 .22uf 63v
    505-MKS2.33/63/10 .33uf 63v
    505-MKS2C034701CJSSD .47uf 63v

    I like the WIMA.
     
    dlucy likes this.
  14. Young46

    Young46 New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    Houston,Texas
    Thank you for the response and recommendation on the replacements! I have a question for my education...not being argumentative because I am not qualified to argue. What exactly do you look for in a replacement for an obsolete capacitor? For example on the three that are obsolete there seem to many others that appear to be suitable replacements such as Nichicon:

    647-QYX1H224JTP 0.22 uF/50 VDC 5%
    647-QYX1H334KTP 0.33 uF/50 VDC 10%
    647-QYX1H474JTP 0.47 uF/50 VDC 5%

    These are general film capacitors as are the Kemet and Wima. So what is the most important requirement to look for when searching for replacement caps?

    Thanks again for your help and response!!
     
  15. zebulon1

    zebulon1 Into Phase Linear's lately Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,774
    Location:
    Las Vegas Nevada
    You can replace the obsolete caps in the list with the same value electrolytic's - as the originals. You might have to go a few sizes up in voltage but that's not an issue. The films are much better to use under 1.0uf than the smaller e-caps but it's harder to find the films in a lead spacing that will accommodate the PCB through holes. Mostly because Mouser and Digikey (At times) may only supply the 100 volt variety - which has too wide of a lead spacing. 63 volts is the largest value that can work (5mm spacing) for almost all the sets we see. Stability and reliability makes the films a better choice.

    Most of the Pro's and Tech's in the know like the WIMA's. I tend to think they all are good enough to use. The WIMA's have a nice red'ish pink color which makes them more attractive, making the board look more populated. :dunno:
    We are relegated to use the stock that is used for the SMT boards. The films with the short leads.

    Others might have a alternative.
     
  16. Young46

    Young46 New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    Houston,Texas
    Thanks for the response. Based on what you are saying would the Nichicon general film caps I named above be suitable replacements? What makes the WIMA a better choice given they all seem to have the same values? Again not arguing, just trying to learn and understand.
     
  17. zebulon1

    zebulon1 Into Phase Linear's lately Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,774
    Location:
    Las Vegas Nevada
    No difference. In fact your Nichicon's have long leads making them a good choice.
    Both are Polyester film.
     
  18. Young46

    Young46 New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    Houston,Texas
    Thank you so much for your response and help. For the amateur restorer choosing the right capacitors can be a real nightmare. There seem to be so many that appear close in value but in some cases are not the best choice for the application. It is so great that there are good people on this site who are willing to offer their time and knowledge to those of us who are not professionals but still like to work on their own gear. Perhaps one day I will be able to help someone in need with their rebuild. I have a thread started and have been trying to get started on my SX-737 rebuild. With your help and help from others on this site I feel much better about going into it knowing that I have all the right parts I will need. Thanks again!
     
  19. buffdriver

    buffdriver Member

    Messages:
    61
    Location:
    Seguin, Texas
    Just a note on the Nichicon films listed above. They are 7.5mm lead spacing and are over twice the price of the Wimas. I've never really liked anything as much as the Panasonic ECQ from the standpoint of size, but I've definitely settled on the Wima caps.

    There are sometimes some big price variations in the different packaging configurations, so I compare otherwise identical spec'd parts for price. If you get them in variations that say "cut tape", they will have the long leads that zebulon1 recommended. Unlike some of the e-caps that I avoid in cut tape, the Wimas come loose from the tape without any problem.
     
  20. rcs16

    rcs16 Super Member

    Messages:
    2,769
    Location:
    Baldwin, Ontario, Canada

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