Discussion of power cords

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My friends and neighbors,

It still all goes back to the argument of perceptive and objective reality. Both are real. Both sides of this, divide, here have excellent points and both are right in their own way. Perception is preference; that should not be forgotten. It is impossible to objectively say, that there is a difference between cable A and cable B unless there is a measurable difference. If there isn't, and it's just what you hear, then it is preference - the perceptive reality I keep speaking of. Some here, have labeled this as an attack when it is actually an observation. We all have preferences. Why do you prefer on shampoo over another, one brand of coffee over another... how about Coke, Pepsi, or RC Cola?

Simply put, if there is no measurable difference, there will be no difference in sound. If there is, it is preference and nothing more. Human perception of sound is about as unreliable an instrument of measure as you can possibly get as the brain is notorious for filling in sounds or changes that it expects to be there due to a large number of influences. That is also why no two people hear exactly the same thing. :yes: :D

I believe you are assuming that there is no actual difference in sound. Understand that people who believe that a PC makes a difference do not consider your "Perception Theory" because your theory assumes that the only difference is perception (i.e.: looks better, I just like it better because of the brand, etc.) To them it is not perception, it is the music is actually different to anyone who can hear it. It's just that our current measurement equipment and techniques cannot effectively measure it.
"Perception is reality" applies here just as it applies in a faster car. I perceive I'm going faster because I actually am going faster, not just because I painted flames on the sides of my car.
 
I believe you are assuming that there is no actual difference in sound. Understand that people who believe that a PC makes a difference do not consider your "Perception Theory" because your theory assumes that the only difference is perception (i.e.: looks better, I just like it better because of the brand, etc.) To them it is not perception, it is the music is actually different to anyone who can hear it. It's just that our current measurement equipment and techniques cannot effectively measure it.
"Perception is reality" applies here just as it applies in a faster car. I perceive I'm going faster because I actually am going faster, not just because I painted flames on the sides of my car.

Sort of...

If you have two cables that do not have a measurable difference in their properties, they will function identically. There will be no difference in the output of the amp. So yes, my assertion is that there is no difference.

If a difference is heard, then where does it come from? The cables without a measurable difference in properties? No, it would come from perception. That too is real to the individual. More than likely however, although that person perceives a difference, there is not in actuality. His or her brain is projecting a "change" as it was an expectation (even if subconsciously). That is a typical human response. Perception is not always objective reality. :yes: :music:

I think you are absolutely correct in your view that those who think power-cords make a difference will not consider the perception theory. I would be the first to say a power cord can make a difference, provided that there is an objectively measurable (and significant) change in the parameters between cable A and cable B, with a further stipulation that the throughput of both is not above the threshold requirements for amplifier. It is this second one that is significant, as even the most rudimentary cables will fulfill the amps power requirements.

Quite frankly, if you were to replace a high-end power cable being used by an audiophile with one that you found next to a dumpster (after cleaning it of corrosion of course) he would hear no difference until he spotted the replaced cable. Only then, will a difference be heard. This difference will, due to perceptive reality, be absolutely real to the individual. Objectively, however, it will not exist otherwise he (or she) would have heard it immediately. :yes:

Can you say Boulder or Lamm. Makes Levinson look affordable. Everything is relative, and that's ok.

Yes, Krell too, but all are well out of my range. ;) I am very happy with what I have. :yes:
 
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you'll have to pry my power cord from my cold dead fingers...

The measuring of machines is a misleading argument. Machines don't listen to machines, people listen to machines.

Perception is a valid test. In fact that's the ultimate end game.

If a person claims he hears something different, then you should measure the person not just the machine. Some people have perfect pitch, some don't. Some ears are trained better. People who buy expensive cords are at that point where they can afford to try tweaking. It may be the cheapest tweak other than buying a completely new system. Ultimately, the person decides whether or not to buy the cord.

You can claim he doesn't hear what you hear.
You can claim there is no measurable difference.
Are you trying to convince them or yourself?

Does that change the person's perception?

Most of the posts on this forum are either first hand experience or "anecdotal." So you take the good with the bad and evaluate it according to your perception.

And when people disagree they bring up that tests and measurements should be done to prove either side. Where are they? It's easier to BS about it then actually do it.

Besides, just about any measured test results or AB tests are attacked for lack of controls, lack of proper sampling, etc. People certainly don't trust the marketing product sheets.
 
Don't know about you, but I've never bought a piece of equipment based on someone else's review. I always listened to it and made up my own mind.

I've been directed to a product by reviews but, like you, always listened and decided.

Actually it's more like directed, listened, compared, listened again.... :music:
 
Sort of...

If you have two cables that do not have a measurable difference in their properties, they will function identically. There will be no difference in the output of the amp. So yes, my assertion is that there is no difference.

If a difference is heard, then where does it come from? The cables without a measurable difference in properties? No, it would come from perception. That too is real to the individual. More than likely however, although that person perceives a difference, there is not in actuality. His or her brain is projecting a "change" as it was an expectation (even if subconsciously). That is a typical human response. Perception is not always objective reality. :yes: :music:

I think you are absolutely correct in your view that those who think power-cords make a difference will not consider the perception theory. I would be the first to say a power cord can make a difference, provided that there is an objectively measurable (and significant) change in the parameters between cable A and cable B, with a further stipulation that the throughput of both is not above the threshold requirements for amplifier. It is this second one that is significant, as even the most rudimentary cables will fulfill the amps power requirements.

Quite frankly, if you were to replace a high-end power cable being used by an audiophile with one that you found next to a dumpster (after cleaning it of corrosion of course) he would hear no difference until he spotted the replaced cable. Only then, will a difference be heard. This difference will, due to perceptive reality, be absolutely real to the individual. Objectively, however, it will not exist otherwise he (or she) would have heard it immediately. :yes:



Yes, Krell too, but all are well out of my range. ;) I am very happy with what I have. :yes:

The assumption here is that we are measuring everything that matters, where it matters. That so many people I know, who's ears I've come to respect, swear by differences means that I'm not yet ready to say that we know everything. Of course, I also just put some expensive cords in a box because right now I don't feel like switching the cords into my other system, which has less expensive cords on it. The reason they're in a box is because I just replaced $10,000 of gear in one system for the time being with a Fisher X-202b tube amp, because I wanted to listen to it for now. We're free to do what we want, for whatever reason we want to do it.
 
The measuring of machines is a misleading argument. Machines don't listen to machines, people listen to machines.

Perception is a valid test. In fact that's the ultimate end game.

If a person claims he hears something different, then you should measure the person not just the machine. Some people have perfect pitch, some don't. Some ears are trained better. People who buy expensive cords are at that point where they can afford to try tweaking. It may be the cheapest tweak other than buying a completely new system. Ultimately, the person decides whether or not to buy the cord.

You can claim he doesn't hear what you hear.
You can claim there is no measurable difference.
Are you trying to convince them or yourself?

Does that change the person's perception?

What I am saying is that perception (or preference) is real to the individual, but due to the nature of our cognitive process may not be objective reality. If someone believes, that cable A makes the amplifier sound better than cable B, that is their preference (perceptive reality). This change, from one to the other, may not actually exist in a measurable (objective) reality and may not be heard by others....

My old Adcom amp has a permanently attached power cable, that has more in common with a cheap lamp cord, than anything else. What I believe is largely irreverent. I am just pointing out the scientific basis for my assertions.

:nono: "A man hears what he wants to hear..." according to Simon and Garfunkel, and that is the definition of perception in a nutshell. :music:

The assumption here is that we are measuring everything that matters, where it matters. That so many people I know, who's ears I've come to respect, swear by differences means that I'm not yet ready to say that we know everything. Of course, I also just put some expensive cords in a box because right now I don't feel like switching the cords into my other system, which has less expensive cords on it. The reason they're in a box is because I just replaced $10,000 of gear in one system for the time being with a Fisher X-202b tube amp, because I wanted to listen to it for now. We're free to do what we want, for whatever reason we want to do it.

Measuring by "ear" is perception and preference (many times synonymous) . It is the essence of music and perfectly acceptable. All I am saying is that with objective measurements, these nuances of sound may not exist. If they do not exist under objective measurement, they exist within the mind of the listener. That too is a reality, just not an objective one. While there may be a preference between cable A and B, it is probably due to perception rather than objective measurement. :yes:
 
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What I am saying is that perception (or preference) is real to the individual, but due to the nature of our cognitive process be objective reality. If someone believes, that cable A makes the amplifier sound better than cable B, that is their preference (perceptive reality). This change, from one to the other, may not actually exist in a measurable (objective) reality and may not be heard by others....

My old Adcom amp has a permanently attached power cable, that has more in common with a cheap lamp cord, than anything else. What I believe is largely irreverent. I am just pointing out the scientific basis for my assertions.

:nono: "A man hears what he wants to hear..." according to Simon and Garfunkel, and that is the definition of perception in a nutshell. :music:

There is some scientific basis in what you believe, but there is also an absence of trying to explain why people are hearing what they hear...ignoring observation. A real scientific approach would try to explain that observation, or at least explain it away, rather than completely disregard it, under the assumption that it is only perception. The assumption that something isn't scientific...isn't scientific.
 
Sort of...
If you have two cables that do not have a measurable difference in their properties, they will function identically. There will be no difference in the output of the amp.

What properties are you measuring?
(I'm not sure if you are saying this hypothetically or if you are stating all PCs measure the same and therefore all sound the same, assuming the gague is adequate)

My personal take is that music is very complex. Add to that our brains are still a huge mystery, how we preceive our world is largely unknown. It adds up to me that measuring equipment and techniques might not be catching all there is to catch.
But on the other hand - I've got other things to invest my money in if I want to make my system sound better. If PCs do make a difference I would expect them to be minor.
 
There is some scientific basis in what you believe, but there is also an absence of trying to explain why people are hearing what they hear...ignoring observation. A real scientific approach would try to explain that observation, or at least explain it away, rather than completely disregard it, under the assumption that it is only perception. The assumption that something isn't scientific...isn't scientific.

It is a well known fact that no two people hear exactly the same thing. They may hear very similar things, but never identical things, as hearing is entirely subjective.

Let me ask you this question: Have you ever thought you heard your mother's or father's voice calling out to you in a dream? Have you ever recalled a time, when you were a small child, with your mother speaking to you? Did her voice not sound real? Of course it did. She is your mother, you know her voice... but how? Your brain is recalling the sound of her voice and making an internal projection to the auditory center of your brain. What you are hearing is what your brain has perceived your mother's voice to sound like. She is not in the room, and you are not physically hearing her voice. That is why, many times, we sound differently in our perception than on tape (which is a far more objective medium). This is referred to as "perceptive reality".

There is a medical condition called Tinnitus, which is a high pitch sound in the ear. I have it personally, in my right ear (and sometimes in the left as well). There is no physical sound, similar in my environment. This high-pitched whine is completely perception as it does not exist in objective reality. Is it real. Very real to me, yet my husband cannot hear it. My doctors cannot her it. My neighbor's dog cannot even hear it. What is causing it?

The brain is projecting it to its auditory center something that my subconscious obviously wants me to hear. I wish it would stop, because it is annoying. This Tinnitus condition is a perceptive reality... The same applies to the perceived sound differences between cable A and cable B if they cannot be objectively measured. :yes:


What properties are you measuring?
(I'm not sure if you are saying this hypothetically or if you are stating all PCs measure the same and therefore all sound the same, assuming the gague is adequate)

My personal take is that music is very complex. Add to that our brains are still a huge mystery, how we preceive our world is largely unknown. It adds up to me that measuring equipment and techniques might not be catching all there is to catch.
But on the other hand - I've got other things to invest my money in if I want to make my system sound better. If PCs do make a difference I would expect them to be minor.

Properties to be measured in the cables: composition, resistance, etc... the physical properties. Music is complex, and 100% subjective. While it is remotely possible that something is being introduced that the diagnostic equipment cannot catch, more than likely it a projection by the brain filling in expected data or a subconscious suggestion. :D
 
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There is some scientific basis in what you believe, but there is also an absence of trying to explain why people are hearing what they hear...ignoring observation. A real scientific approach would try to explain that observation, or at least explain it away, rather than completely disregard it, under the assumption that it is only perception. The assumption that something isn't scientific...isn't scientific.

That's how we move forward. We take something we don't understand, like why some people prefer cable A over cable B, and analyze it until we figure out whatever it was we were missing.

If we just say "there's no difference (using current methods) therefore it's all in your head then we don't go anywhere. We stagnate.

KG, you keep talking about the subjective nature of music. That's a perfectly valid assertion. However, we're not talking about music. We're talking about the performance of a particular piece of equipment. The subjectivity of music has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
I`m still thinking about changing the cord on my microwave.... but only if it makes the popcorn taste better
 
I`m still thinking about changing the cord on my microwave.... but only if it makes the popcorn taste better

You've said this a couple of times, and maybe you're joking but there is no correlation between the popcorn, and music that is monitored constantly during the 'event' of the amplifier's use. Popcorn in this case, would be like saying you put the needle on the record, and returned 1/3 of an hour later to find that the record had indeed played through...and therefor the stereo has done its job, even though you didn't listen to it.
 
KG, you keep talking about the subjective nature of music. That's a perfectly valid assertion. However, we're not talking about music. We're talking about the performance of a particular piece of equipment. The subjectivity of music has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Thank you Ray,

Sound is music. More precisely, a collection of sounds perceived as harmonious when played together. If cable A alters the perception (or produces an effect) of a piece of music in any way over cable B, then we are talking about performance.

You and I, or anyone else, will never hear a piece of music the same way even if we were sitting in the same room while it is played. That is human nature as sound is completely subjective. The problem we having is that were are trying to objectively measure a perceptual component (change of tone). If you cannot objectively measure a difference, yet a perceptual difference is perceived, that is real to the listen but the sound (like the high pitch whine of my Tinnitus) may not actually exist as an objective (physical) reality. :music:

BTW: my name is Tasha :)
 
While it is remotely possible that something is being introduced that the diagnostic equipment cannot catch, more than likely it a projection by the brain filling in expected data or a subconscious suggesting. :D

That's as good a guess as any I suppose. I am assuming that you have extensive experience with electrical diagnostic equipment, AC power, transmission lines, velocity factors of different materials??? :D

But just think about 50 years ago - People thought the equipment of the day was very sophisticated also. What will we think of our current day equipment 50 or 100 years from now? No chance that we'll learn something new in this area? We have it all covered as of when, last year? 5 years ago? 50 years ago?
 
I'd be willing to bet that no two power cords, even the same model, measure the same with enough resolution in the test gear. ;)
 
I'd be willing to bet that no two power cords, even the same model, measure the same with enough resolution in the test gear. ;)

And you are probably right! They will, however, most likely have only a minute deviation from one another. They will, provided both are of good quality, have greater than required performance than required by the amplifier's power supply. Thus to the power supply, both will appear more or less identical. :D

That's as good a guess as any I suppose. I am assuming that you have extensive experience with electrical diagnostic equipment, AC power, transmission lines, velocity factors of different materials??? :D

But just think about 50 years ago - People thought the equipment of the day was very sophisticated also. What will we think of our current day equipment 50 or 100 years from now? No chance that we'll learn something new in this area? We have it all covered as of when, last year? 5 years ago? 50 years ago?

My experience is not in diagnostic equipment, AC power conversion, and things like that. I do have some background in Psychology. You are missing what I am saying: Those that hear a change - they are hearing it, it is real to them. It is just that this change, may not physically (objectively) exist. It has nothing to do at all with the quality of the measuring equipment used. :yes:
 
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The same applies to the perceived sound differences between cable A and cable B if they cannot be objectively measured. :yes:

With this argument you're still not addressing the very real possibility that the differences between the cables do exist, and are audible, but we're measuring the wrong thing. I think the big mistake often made by the objective-only and wire-is-wire camp has to do with this very issue: they're simply assuming there's no way we wouldn't presently be able to measure the difference if it actually existed.

Incidentally - and I'm sure this will be dismissed by a lot of people taking part in this thread - I found it interesting that one of the guys who designs the Bottlehead tube amps describes on their website how he recently tried making a power cord with some extra wire they'd ordered by mistake and were stuck with, and was dumbfounded at what to him was a clearly audible difference compared to the basic stock cords they normally use. He admits he has no explanation for this, but that the difference is not subtle, and an improvement or difference was not what he was even looking for or anticipating.

That's where I take issue with the aforementioned "non-believer" camp in this argument. Many of us are sure we hear very clear and audible differences between certain power cords. Why don't they question everything else people are sure they hear, like differences between speakers, and phono cartridges, and turntables? Can you show me measurements that will explain very specific sonic attributes of those components that are generally accepted by everyone as being real? You can't - not always - but that doesn't prove they don't exist, just that we aren't measuring the right thing.
 
You are missing what I am saying: Those that hear a change - they are hearing it, it is real to them. It is just that this change, may not physically (objectively) exist. It has nothing to do at all with the quality of the measuring equipment used. :yes:

I am not missing it, I am saying that people who believe the PC makes a difference don't agree.
But you also mention measurement in your posts, so you do speak of both.

See the first sentence of Mr Lin's post.

FWIW - One of the truely interesting things for me about this hobby is the way our brains can play tricks. I spend a fair amount of time reading about that. So I am well aware and I agree. But I say we are not always sure what is a trick and what is reality (reality in the "outside your head" sense).
 
Man does this thread have legs! Unfortunately there is a lot of rehashing and repeating. It's been interesting though!

Regards,
Jim
 
Just looked up the cord that was attached to my Levinson amp. Some listing that had it for sale said "use for mid-fi or entry level high end". Oops. Imagine what I've been missing out on this whole time by using it with a decidedly high-end amplifier.

Which is to say...I completely understand how this stuff is a huge turnoff to some.

The power cord supplied with my Levinson amp appears quite generic, although it is 14ga and (apparently) shielded according to the writing molded into the cable jacket. Same with my Audio Research, except that one doesn't say it's shielded.
 
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