DIY Walsh speakers

[TimF]

Another Walsh-type ice-cream-cone tweeter available at this site:

http://www.warrengregoire.com/hifi-stereo-ikonoklast-tweeters.htm

The Ikonoklast speakers too are interesting as well. Seems to me I have seen another guy that is making a similar tweeter but I have forgotten who it is. FWIW.

 

[ASVJerry]

Off on another tangent...

(Fortunately, I'm a fan of tangential turntables too, so I'm kinda 'there' already...*L*)

elnaldo, likely you're right...but I've got a tush-load of the stuff. *L* And I'm cheap and too lazy to add yet another variable into the formula. I just finished adhering the segments together, and they're not as heavy as one might think. Besides...the nice thing about the construction I'm using (and my familiarity with the 'how' I'm putting them together) will allow me to 'swap out' the cones at some later date. I am keeping the 'lighter=faster/better{?}' in mind, though...

Nat, the woofs and mids are 'upside down' (apex top, base bottom), resting on the damping surround. The tweets are just the reverse, like the Infinitys' (I used to own a pair with those units), sans damping which I may opt to add later. I have a 'trick' that I did before on a non-functioning pair that's fairly easy to add. The tweets are a 2 mil alum, so they is there...*G*

Binkman, just 'messing around', as typ. *L* Yeah, I've got some of those 'nail nabbers', too. Been curious if they'd be good as 'bucking magnets' (that Is Not a cheap play on words; Google it... ....), but that 'cheap thrill' can wait for another day. And, Yes, it does absorb space farting around with speakers; fortunately, I've got that....and not just between my ears...*smirk*

Hi, TimF *G* Yeah, I've got the Ikonoklasts' bookmarked. I've noticed he makes a point of warning folks not to play them TOO LOUD, which I can personally attest to. Cooks the voice coils suddenly...been there, done that. If I 'push' mine, I can put a finger on the center of the back of the magnets and feel the heat it's generating. And then I back off....it's a 'dance with a known devil' at this point. I'm working towards getting drivers that can handle the higher heat. Instrument speakers (say, for guitars and the like) are an attractive alternative that I'm looking to try.
There's a guy on eBay that repairs Infinity/Walsh tweeters, perhaps that's who you have in mind. I've talked to him on the phone (he's in KY, I'm in NC) about them... He repairs, but doesn't build new ones...

 

[ASVJerry]

Bose 901s'....*sigh* I used to own a pair of 901Bs'. Drove them with a Marantz 2270. Turned up, the pilot lights would 'dim' with the bass line. Somehow didn't fry the sucker...*L*
Do you know that you can throw a kilowatt at those things? Power hungry little bastards... Used to play mine so loud that one day my landlady walked in, announced that she could hear the Doobie Brothers all the way to her mailbox 100 yards away, and I was drowning out her stereo in her house 20 yards away....
She wasn't pissed...just blown away....
*L*...and that's half of my story as to why my hearing won't have me writing reviews of expensive esoteria...

 

[TimF]

I talked to Warren a few years ago about the Ikonoklast 3's, was really curious and almost took a stab at listening to them. Maybe sanity prevailed I don't know, but never got around to testing them out.

I have a feeling that they wouldn't fill the bill as I do like to turn the wick up on occasion. Poor devils would probably have a melt down.

 

[ASVJerry]

Seems a common problem with the Walsh variants, in what I've read. The German Physiks don't seem to warn anyone about 'excessive' volume, but they're also pretty pricey. I'm trying to come up with someone reasonably robust that doesn't cost a minor fortune, has an acceptable sound if not the 'perfect sonic profile', and is fairly easy to repair if it does cook.

 

[TimF]

Jerry, have you taken a listen to the current Ohm "Walsh" CLS designs? I have owned the newer 2000 and 3000 series and they seem to be very durable, you can pound them quite hard without any damage to them, they seem to soak it all up in stride. Granted these aren't a true "Walsh" driver either, so makes a bit more sense that they could handle more juice.

I thought these variants though were very good for the most part. I currently own a apir of Shahinian Obelisk 2's and Larsen Model 4's, a semi-omni type speaker. I just prefer these presentations, much easier to site and no head-in-vice listening. Seems to be a more life-like/live presentation, but I also have heard it is difficult to beat the original Walsh A and F drivers for their overall purity. I do not know as I have unfortunately ever heard a pair.

The German Physiks also look to be very interesting but price makes them one of those unobtainables for me, so not in a hurry to hear them at this point. I think the carbon fibre driver is a bit more robust than the cheaper aluminum variety from what I have heard and read.

What a fantastic driver though for its day, Walsh was ahead of the times it would seem.

 

[ASVJerry]

No, haven't had the pleasure or privilege to hear anything current of Ohms'. Nobody in this area even knows what an 'Ohm' or a 'Walsh' IS, much less likely to own a pair. If they couldn't take some abuse after all these years that Ohm has been selling them I'd be amazed, frankly. The last 'new' pair I heard was the ones I'd advised a friend to buy at least two decades ago. Last I heard he still owns and loves them....

I have heard a pair of Shahs' some time ago...nice then, but nothing current; not familiar with Larsens'. I guess I should go web-watching...*G*

I was lucky enough to hear a pair of F's what seems a century ago...amazed my young self enough to attempt what I'm up to now. They had a desire for high power, and a noted tendency to 'overindulge' and go *phft!* on one. Physically big buggers, too.

I'm more less focusing on smaller units, similar to the Ohm 3Ks', and letting a sub take care of the 'bottom'. The 10" pair I'm playing with now is more or less a lark, since they also fell into my lap...i.e., cheap and not worth reconing/restoring. If they go *foom*, I'll likely rebuild them at my leisure....*S*

I like the G.P.s' for their 'look' and their 'build'....not in my $ universe either *L*. I would like to mess with the carbon fibre and titanium at a later date, when I've got the 'voice coil lifespan issue' more or less dealt with. If I can drive a heavier cone, then I'll be ready to step up to more esoteric cone substances.

....and Yes, the Walsh design and the man were ahead of their time. IMHO, they were victims of a lack of appropo materials and application of technology that really didn't exist then....

It does now....also IMHO...even for 'DIY garage dillitants' like me. *G* Making 'junk' sing....however crudely....

 

[ASVJerry]

The diversion continues...

Yes, they're big cones...lighter than they look, too.

Next to is the stack they'll go under. The mids will be a little different (that's a v.2 'standing in'), but essentially the same.

Bases and structure next...*S*

 

[TimF]

Very good Jerry, will be watching from time to time!

 

[ASVJerry]

Yeah, I need to be kept under observation...ever since I learned how to get out of a strait jacket. Besides, I like people who like to watch...

...and those that can handle my sense of humor do well around me, too.

 

[ASVJerry]

It finally dawned on me....

"I once refoamed a dozen pairs of Bose 901's..." = 108 drivers...

I bet you either got Really Fast with the last 18, or you were so buzzed by adhesives by that time you couldn't stop 'gluing things'....Anythings....chairs to the walls, a table to the ceiling...The Grateful Dead poster to the cat...*smirk*

 

[TimF]

Yes, I got freaky-fast. It was a gluing frenzy, a veritable nightmare....Actually, I stopped on the first driver. Hah! No, actually it was just pure silliness, I haven't refoamed a 901 at all. Not that I wouldn't, well, maybe. Nah, probably not.

I have pretty much gotten out of most of the DIY stuff, I leave that to people that have the time to do it up right. I just do the basics these days, but watch with interest. DIY "Walsh type" speakers have always interested me though!

 

[ASVJerry]

A 'gotcha' moment?

*L* Didn't mean to call your bluff, y'know. The 'alternative reality' could have held some interesting and perhaps bordering on the epic...

...I mean, a line source of a stack of 901s'....please, you could hire it out for demolition and sell tickets. *LOL* Definitely taking care where you'd aim it.

(Atavistic note: Set up a van with mesh sides. Line inside of van with a wall of 901s'. Go 'hunting' for 'bassers' (you know, the ones driving about, rattling the bolts loose on their vehicles (aka, Portable Lower Intestine Blockage Removal Units). Give 'em a dose of Vivaldi @ 140db (wear your sound muffs).

When the going gets Strange, the Merely Odd can get Absolutely Insane. Not that's my excuse....no.....*insidious L*

Meanwhile, I'm going to have to hang my projects on the hook for awhile. Spring is spronging, and business is getting back to... Looking at 4~5 wks. out of town on an installation, and 2~3 other projects following thereafter.
So 'play time' will come to a premium for a time.

But I'll be keeping an eye on this and other forums I inhabit, just in case someone wanders by.

And, 'till then....take care out there. People like me on the highway.

 

[willivintage]

Hi there,

hope to get some thoughts on rebuilding some Ohm F speakers. Problem is - as nearly usual - the drivers. Sagging spiders, brittle damping foam and surround foams etc. This should be all repairable. Voice coils are both measured with same values and they are okay. But: the cones should be replaced. On one the titan foil is on the upper end wavy (as so often) and the other has on the paper cone some kinks (not broken). Here in Germany these speakers are very rare and I do not someone who is confidence and I want to repair/rebuild them on myselfe. I am confidence in Physics and have measure equipment for speaker building etc.. But I have read that they are very complex. What do you think?

 

[ASVJerry]

Some thoughts on vintage repairs...

Hi Willi...Yeah, that sounds like the typical fate of the old Fs'. They just give up the ghost after awhile. There's a couple of places and individuals here in the states that are purported to be able to revive them, but they tend to be pricey. That, and the shipping of the drivers from and to EU is bound to add to the agony....

Since I'm involved with making small 'clones' and not full range units like the Fs', I'll offer some suggestions on how to approach a DIY rehab. I've no real experience with making a multilayer cone of that complexity, or the coating that they have/had. It's going to be challenging at minimum, with no real guarantee of success. But, here goes...

First, I'd look at every forum that discusses the Fs', and see if there's anyone 'out there' that has tried, or has some insight as to the construction.

Second, I'd measure Every detail and dimension of the cones that I could. From that, I'd try to source a replacement spider or one that could potentially be modified. Spider 'sag' on the Fs' seems IMHO driven by relentless gravity pulling the cones down onto failing surrounds.

Third, I'd begin to duplicate the cones by building some prototypes that would build your 'skill set' as to the construction. Use materials that are inexpensive because you're looking to learn 'how'; save the titanium and aluminum for when you feel you can 'get serious' and go for it.

Fourth, the surround material is meant to Damp the cones' impulse waves. Check out the original patent for the physics involved. That, and they have to be stout enough to support the structure above it. I'm using EVA foam currently, but I'm considering Sorbothane and similar exotics when I think it might be worth a shot. But that's certainly not what existed on the old Fs'...

Fifth, and finally...I'd be willing to accept that your efforts may not return your units to their full former glory and sound. There is a discrete balance in the choice of materials and construction that were available in that era at the price point that drove Ohm to make them that way. And then there's the issue of the 'mystery stuff' on the interior of the cones that could drive you to drink or talk to yourself excessively. It's going to be difficult. My approach has been to 'spoof' the German Physiks units; HHR and Dale Harder here in the US is making a 'new & improved' variant of the Fs' that is been well received, so it is possible.

In short...good luck. If I can help in any small fashion, feel free to drop in. Even someone to commiserate with can be nice. *G*

 

[Binkman]

just a bump.

Might have a source at creative acoustics in Ral. for cones. only issue is getting measurements to them for vintage stock or actually visit the store as no online page or inventory list.

 

[ASVJerry]

Hi, Bink. Thanks for the 'bump'....and I/we 'do biznez' in Ral off 'n on. I'll note the name and pay them a visit on the next tour. I'll post what I can observe and absorb.

Meanwhile, our 'busy season' has gotten off on a good start:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article21952365.html

We're real pleased to the point of blown away. *L* Local paper, Sunday edition, front page above the fold as well. Can't have too much exposure in our major market.

 

[ASVJerry]

Finally...

...a long threatened 'experiment' comes to fruition...

Just some particleboard scrap utilized, not elegant but suitable. Sizing of the lower void was meant for a 6" V.3, but a V.2 pair was siting around idle, so...

It's just as I thought....there is no noticeable negative effect with regards to gross cancellations of response, at least in a listening test. If anything, volume/spl seems to be augmented...which IMHO relates as to why GP 'pairs' their DDD units and indicates such in their specs.
Because of the difference in size of the cones of my drivers, there seems to be an 'evening out' of the tonality, much like what we'd experience with different driver sizes with a conventional speaker. If there's anything going on that's perhaps not apparent without 'getting deep', there may be the condition of the cones moving towards each other in the lower frequencies being cancelled out. If the seal between the two was airtight (which it certainly isn't now), any tendency to 'push air' as with a conventional driver might be damped out. Just thinking...

If there's anything noticeable that's a negative, the spatial qualities at the intersection/collar at the bases create a 'null zone' in the near field, say 1~4'. Not surprising, that. The radiation pattern tends to be tilted 'up' from the cones, more or less at a right angle from the cone's angle.

...but fun to play with, none the less....*G*

Next variant: Mount the units reversed from as shown, but spaced apart vertically...think of the lower unit above the upper one, but say 3~4' apart.

Will the created dispersions 'blend' better, much like the interaction of the T/M/W of a conventional speaker? My experience with my little clones says they will....stay tuned.

 

[willivintage]

Thanks for giving me advises. First I will try to refurbish one driver and meassure/listen what they should reproduce. Spiders/Voicecoils are available. Trial&Error with different materials for the cone is what I will do at the next step. Keep going....

 

[ASVJerry]

Good luck with your quest, willi. Come on by if you think I can help keep your feet on the path, so to speak. Ever upward, and watch out for those ceilings.