Do more sensitive speakers sound more dynamic?

[bimasta]

Would love for you to post pictures as they are extremely rare in this country. What drivers and enclosures did you have?

Oh man, I have to disappoint you. It was over 20 years ago, I didn't take pictures, and I didn't keep them long. I don't remember which driver they used. I'll try Google, maybe I can find a picture and recognize it, but after all this time I might get it wrong. You're making me feel useless.

I was in Cape Town, SA — most of the gear there was imported from UK. Lowther had a small but devoted following — but a minus-WAF because of their size. My wife didn't like them but she was pretty good about such things. But she too was very disappointed by the sound (she was an audiophile and loved having big ugly stacked-Quads in the living room) and she was glad to see the Lowthers go.

OK, I Googled... most of the pix are recent models and DIY cabinets, not relevant. For some reason, my computer won't copy pics off Google — I usually just drag them to my desktop but it ain't happenin'. So I can't post anything here. Links instead...

I think the driver was PM6A, sounds right and it was 6". The pic only showed the back, I'd have to see the front to be sure.

These were the cabinets...

http://stereonomono.blogspot.com/2011/12/lowther-tp1-1954.html

I also heard one of these really big ones (not the pair — scroll down). Magnificent cabinetry, monstrously huge. My friend did all the high-end repairs in Cape Town, and had one in the shop. To demonstrate its efficiency, he connected it to a Discman — no amp, just the 1/4Watt headphone output. HFN-RR, the UK audio magazine, had a demo CD at the time. It included the sound of corrugated-metal garage door being pulled down fast and slammed to the concrete hard. It was DEAFENING!! Like being in that garage. It actually hurt. We were all amazed, just 1/4Watt (or maybe 1/2Watt — still). Didn't hear it with music, alas. He was working on them, not playing them. So I also saw the driver because he took it out — it had a HUGE white plaster waveguide, like an incandescent light bulb but at least 5-times the size

http://www.itishifi.com/2010/02/lowther-hegerman-teak-1950-1951-pair.html

Hope this is of interest...

 

[Poultrygeist]

Oh man, I have to disappoint you. It was over 20 years ago, I didn't take pictures, and I didn't keep them long. I don't remember which driver they used. I'll try Google, maybe I can find a picture and recognize it, but after all this time I might get it wrong. You're making me feel useless.

I was in Cape Town, SA — most of the gear there was imported from UK. Lowther had a small but devoted following — but a minus-WAF because of their size. My wife didn't like them but she was pretty good about such things. But she too was very disappointed by the sound (she was an audiophile and loved having big ugly stacked-Quads in the living room) and she was glad to see the Lowthers go.

OK, I Googled... most of the pix are recent models and DIY cabinets, not relevant. For some reason, my computer won't copy pics off Google — I usually just drag them to my desktop but it ain't happenin'. So I can't post anything here. Links instead...

I think the driver was PM6A, sounds right and it was 6". The pic only showed the back, I'd have to see the front to be sure.

These were the cabinets...

http://stereonomono.blogspot.com/2011/12/lowther-tp1-1954.html

I also heard one of these really big ones (not the pair — scroll down). Magnificent cabinetry, monstrously huge. My friend did all the high-end repairs in Cape Town, and had one in the shop. To demonstrate its efficiency, he connected it to a Discman — no amp, just the 1/4Watt headphone output. HFN-RR, the UK audio magazine, had a demo CD at the time. It included the sound of corrugated-metal garage door being pulled down fast and slammed to the concrete hard. It was DEAFENING!! Like being in that garage. It actually hurt. We were all amazed, just 1/4Watt (or maybe 1/2Watt — still). Didn't hear it with music, alas. He was working on them, not playing them. So I also saw the driver because he took it out — it had a HUGE white plaster waveguide, like an incandescent light bulb but at least 5-times the size

http://www.itishifi.com/2010/02/lowther-hegerman-teak-1950-1951-pair.html

Hope this is of interest...

Very interesting indeed. While most climb the ladder toward more expensive speakers you went from a five figure pair of rare Lowther factory speakers to a pair of 3 figure Quads.
Your wife didn't like the TP1 Lowthers because of their size yet they don't appear any larger than the Quads.
You say you had the 6 inch PM6A in the TP1 cabinetry. FWIW the PM6A is an 8 inch driver.

 

[whoaru99]

This is a pair of Audio Nirvana 12" full range single driver. Highly sensitive. They sound nice, natural, and very airy. However, they don't sound dynamic to me. Not enough slam and punchyness the JBL 4311's exhibits. Would these kind of speakers make good home theater speakers?

Not in my book if they can't produce punch and slam when necessary.

It would seem not in yours either, based on your personal evaluation.

 

[Poultrygeist]

This is a pair of Audio Nirvana 12" full range single driver. Highly sensitive. They sound nice, natural, and very airy. However, they don't sound dynamic to me. Not enough slam and punchyness the JBL 4311's exhibits. Would these kind of speakers make good home theater speakers?

Full range single drivers have many strengths but slam is not one of them. I use four Frugal Horns plus a matching center in my HT but the slam comes from a Bob Carver sub.

 

[Kreshna]

Not in my book if they can't produce punch and slam when necessary.

It would seem not in yours either, based on your personal evaluation.

I see. I remember reading somewhere that Fostex FE206EN in double bass-reflex enclosure would make good home theater speakers, but now I'm not convinced anymore.

Full range single drivers have many strengths but slam is not one of them. I use four Frugal Horns plus a matching center in my HT but the slam comes from a Bob Carver sub.

View attachment 1023671

I see. So, the slam from the sub should be more than enough to cover full range single drivers' weaknesses in home theater, shouldn't it?

As such, what are the advantages of using full range single drivers for home theater setup? Perhaps better sound stage depth than typical multi-driver loudspeakers?

 

[whoaru99]

Curious...is there an end game to all this?

I see. So, the slam from the sub should be more than enough to cover full range single drivers' weaknesses in home theater, shouldn't it?

Not having any full range single driver speakers I can't say definitively. However, in pairing smaller or larger speakers with subs in my HT, I much prefer the punch/slam of the system when larger speakers are used with lower crossover to the subs than when smaller speakers used with higher crossover to the subs.

For me, punch/slam means mid/upper bass perhaps up into lower midrange, not the sub/low bass. Small speakers just don't have the ability to produce as much punch/slam as larger ones when push comes to shove. That is not to say a small speaker/sub combo can't sound good, they can.

But it is to say why many serious HT folks on other forums went to incorporating mid-bass boxes or larger mains in their systems despite having great subs already. Subs make great low bass and rumble, but a lot of the punch/slam comes from above the typical range of the sub.

Bear in mind that the published response curve or even measured response curve at low/normal levels is not representative of what the speaker can do when you start pushing up the volume or look at max output capability.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Before building the Frugal Horns I had this large Athena 5.1 system. Considering dynamics ( defined as the ability to go suddenly from very soft to very loud and back again without congestion ) and not slam the little 4.5 inch Frugal Horns are noticeably better.

 

[whoaru99]

After reading many, but not all, of the posts in this thread I think the OPs use of the word "dynamics" refers more to the punch/slam of strong mid and upper bass characteristic than of technical dynamic range.

 

[Poultrygeist]

I enjoy the slam from a sub when reproducing HT sound effects but with acoustic jazz I rarely need it. Maybe with a kick drum but that's it.

 

[elitopus]

Not having any full range single driver speakers I can't say definitively. However, in pairing smaller or larger speakers with subs in my HT, I much prefer the punch/slam of the system when larger speakers are used with lower crossover to the subs than when smaller speakers used with higher crossover to the subs.

For me, punch/slam means mid/upper bass perhaps up into lower midrange, not the sub/low bass. Small speakers just don't have the ability to produce as much punch/slam as larger ones when push comes to shove.

 

[bimasta]

but with acoustic jazz I rarely need it.

Depends on the jazz recording, doesn't it Geist? I have a live acoustic Ben Webster record, and I was listening blissfully through Quad 63 'statics — good bass, not great bass. The music has a stand-up bass line, I was aware it was there, but it never really joined the other instruments. Then I got two subs, flat to 20Hz which integrated seamlessly, and my God that bass line is a masterpiece on its own! The detail it contains, the bassist's fingers sliding on the strings, his thumb striking the body of the bass, have musical value. The set is recorded in a nightclub, with all the ambient sounds — women's laughter at the ringside tables, even ice cubes clinking in the glasses — and those subs made it a live 3-dimensional space, you can tell how big the club was, even follow the Cocktail Waitresses as they go to and from the tables (high heels clicking) — one Waitress even knocks over a microphone and the right channel goes dead for 20 seconds. Adding those subs make it a living experience. And what it adds to the music as a whole, as an artistic expression, is just magic.

 

[Djcoolray]

Well I don't see how a particular situation can define all extremely sensitive speakers. Because not all the crossovers in all the extremely sensitive speakers are the same. Why is someone always trying to find a one definition fits all scenario for components that are in no way similar?? Do we all have to look at things the same??

I have a rare set of extremely sensitive speakers (105db) that are extremely accurate and extremely dynamically profound. The reproduction of the frequency spectrum my speakers receive from its source allows the speakers to reveal an accurate image. I can't begin to understand the possible limitations someone might think sensitivity might create.

 

[Djcoolray]

All I can say is, matching up equipment is not just something you put together and hope it sounds good together.......then make an excuse why !

 

[Poultrygeist]

Depends on the jazz recording, doesn't it Geist? I have a live acoustic Ben Webster record, and I was listening blissfully through Quad 63 'statics — good bass, not great bass. The music has a stand-up bass line, I was aware it was there, but it never really joined the other instruments. Then I got two subs, flat to 20Hz which integrated seamlessly, and my God that bass line is a masterpiece on its own! The detail it contains, the bassist's fingers sliding on the strings, his thumb striking the body of the bass, have musical value. The set is recorded in a nightclub, with all the ambient sounds — women's laughter at the ringside tables, even ice cubes clinking in the glasses — and those subs made it a live 3-dimensional space, you can tell how big the club was, even follow the Cocktail Waitresses as they go to and from the tables (high heels clicking) — one Waitress even knocks over a microphone and the right channel goes dead for 20 seconds. Adding those subs make it a living experience. And what it adds to the music as a whole, as an artistic expression, is just magic.

"Slam" is the bass impact you can feel in your chest ( visceral impact ) which can get you in trouble with the neighbors. Slam from an acoustic double bass is lacking but with an electric bass that's a different story. A kick drum I've felt in a live performance when sitting near the drummer. Some of my NOLA street jazz CD's offer a good reproduction of the kick drum which I can feel if using a sub. Since 90% of my listening is acoustic jazz plus a little chamber music "slam" is not very high on my list of system priorities. In one of my current OB system I'm using two 15" OB woofers plus 3 subs - not out of need but because I can.

 

[bimasta]

Slam from an acoustic double bass is lacking but with an electric bass that's a different story.

"Slam from an acoustic double bass is lacking..." I wasn't talking about 'slam'. I was talking about Music, and the importance that double bass makes to it. The instrument also goes lower (not louder) than an electric bass.

We're not arguing about who has the bigger woofer, are we? If so, count me out.

 

[Poultrygeist]

"Slam from an acoustic double bass is lacking..." I wasn't talking about 'slam'. I was talking about Music, and the importance that double bass makes to it. The instrument also goes lower (not louder) than an electric bass.

We're not arguing about who has the bigger woofer, are we? If so, count me out.

You quoted me and I was talking about slam.

 

[sqlsavior]

An acoustic double bass can be about a lot of things.

To a yokel like me, here it's about sounding like a viola:

 

[bimasta]

An acoustic double bass can be about a lot of things. To a yokel like me, here it's about sounding like a viola:

Thanks for that, Savior. Very beautiful. I'll be checking for more of him.

"Yokel". Right...

 

[bimasta]

Very interesting indeed. While most climb the ladder toward more expensive speakers you went from a five figure pair of rare Lowther factory speakers to a pair of 3 figure Quads.
Your wife didn't like the TP1 Lowthers because of their size yet they don't appear any larger than the Quads.
You say you had the 6 inch PM6A in the TP1 cabinetry. FWIW the PM6A is an 8 inch driver.

I didn't know the Lowthers are 5 figures — do you mean present-day value? I got them for peanuts at the time, cost me more for a truck to get them home than I paid for them. But it was a long time ago
I know you didn't mean "climbing the ladder to more expensive speakers" equates to sound quality. I've often gone down that ladder for sound quality, and I'm about to so again when I find a buyer.

This is what I wrote about my wife — "Lowther had a small but devoted following — but a minus-WAF because of their size. My wife didn't like them but she was pretty good about such things. But she too was very disappointed by the sound (she was an audiophile and loved having big ugly stacked-Quads in the living room) and she was glad to see the Lowthers go."

My wife didn't like the sound. She was fine with their size — if they sounded great. My only remark on size was about other wives, a generalization. And the Lowthers are 10-times deeper than Quads, so don't compare in size. As for 6" or 8" — please forgive my memory, it was ages ago.

 

[Poultrygeist]

bimasta,

Here's information on the rare and very expensive Lowther TP1 that you claim cost you less than the truck rental to get them home. Lowther still sells the TP1 but you have to request their price in writing.

http://www.roger-russell.com/voigt/lowther.htm

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/f...ade-premium-speaker-2013-09-30-speakers-korea