Do SACD's sound better than CD's in a stereo system? or not?

[damacman]

He's been racking his brains on witch mac preamp to get for a month. He's already jumped way higher than he wanted and it hasn't even arrived at his door. Now you want to tell him to jump another $4000 higher than he has already, I think Kev has you pegged as an enabler all right!!

First time we've seen his setup ...

 

[4-2-7]

First time we've seen his setup ...

Well actually I'v seen it a bunch but it keeps changing weekly. He's got a bad habit of buying all the good stuff in a 50 mile radius of his house

 

[damacman]

Well actually I'v seen it a bunch but it keeps changing weekly. He's got a bad habit of buying all the good stuff in a 50 mile radius of his house

You order those 611s yet?

 

[4-2-7]

You order those 611s yet?

You order those 611s yet?

The short story
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/vac-pa100-100-valve-amplification-company.829043/

 

[robert_kc]

To send a digital signal out the Oppo and to the C2500
From the manual, number id the location
4. Coaxial Digital Audio Output
5. Optical Digital Audio Output
You can use one of these to the C2500 DAC side of the preamp and will play mostly all CDs and DVDs (Sound) through the c2500 DAC. I would probably use the Coaxial cable here.

To send a stereo analogue signal out the Oppo and to the C2500
From the manual, location 12
12. 7.1CH / 5.1CH / Stereo Analog Audio Outputs
However you only use Front Right and Front Left and hook up your standard type RCA cables, these will run to the C2500 analogue inputs, like the one marked CD. This will let you use the DAC in the Oppo, and will send the converted SACD, Blu-ray sound to your C2500 analogue inputs.

If you have a flat screen TV in the room
From the manual, location
5. Optical Digital Audio Output
6. HDMI 2 Output (3D Compatible)
7. HDMI 1 Output (3D Compatible)
Use one of these to send a signal to the TV to watch DVD, Blu-ray
HDMI would be my choice

With your CDP and all three of these hook ups you should be able to play everything the Oppo can play. You will have two options for the DAC of choice in most cases. You will also be able to watch DVDs and Blu-rays and have the sound go out your stereo system. Add a powered sub and you will have great movie sound and all that is really needed IMHO.

The following is excerpted from the Oppo UDP-103D user manual:

Due to bandwidth limitations, high resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. A reduced resolution version of the same audio track will be output instead. To listen to high resolution audio formats in their best quality, please use the HDMI connection if you have a receiver that handles HDMI audio (see page 11) or use the multi-channel analog outputs if you do not (see page 16).

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACDs, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.

Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD-Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVDAudio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.​

The Oppo’s built-in DACs will play almost anything. The UDP-205 (and BDP-105, and BDP-95) have “audiophile grade” DACs and analog circuitry. (The BDP-103D will also work.)

4-2-7: Are you suggesting connecting the Oppo and amp via analog RCA line-level – and coax? I’ve never done that. Would the user have to know to play Blu-ray and SACD via the analog connection, and play CDs via the coax connection if he wants to use a DAC external to the Oppo for CDs? (Of course CDs can be played via the Oppo’s internal DAC. $64k question: For CDs, would an external DAC sound better than the DAC in the Oppo BDP-103? Better than the DAC in the Oppo UDP-205? Would a CD and external DAC sound better than a hi-res recording (SACD or 24bit/192kHz PCM) played via the Oppo UDP-205’s DAC?)

IMO, the easiest way to get started in hi-res audio is via “shiny discs” such as SACD and Blu-ray, and by connecting the amp via the Oppo’s analog RCA line-level connections (either 2.0, 2.1, or 5.1). (Out of the Oppo product family, the UDP-205 plays the most types of discs and music files, and has the best DACs.)

It’s also relatively easy to download a 24/192 FLAC file from HDTracks to a PC. Here’s an example of a hi-res recording by one of the bands that the OP mentioned: http://www.hdtracks.com/van-halen-1984-2015-remaster (There are also sites that offer hi-res DSD downloads.)

On a standard USB drive, it’s easy to define folders, using the PC’s standard File Explorer. For example, create a folder called “Van Halen”.

Then simply use File Explorer to copy the downloaded music files from the PC to the folder on the USB drive.

Unplug the USB drive from the PC, and then plug it into the USB port on the front of the Oppo.

It’s very easy to navigate the music folders using the Oppo’s remote control.

There are more sophisticated ways to play downloaded files (e.g., DLNA networking), but the simple “sneaker-ware” method described above is easy, and reliable.

 

[4-2-7]

4-2-7: Are you suggesting connecting the Oppo and amp via analog RCA line-level – and coax?

Yes

Would the user have to know to play Blu-ray and SACD via the analog connection, and play CDs via the coax connection if he wants to use a DAC external to the Oppo for CDs?

Yes and I have been explaining it in this thread and others to theo. He has the option to play everything though the Oppo via the analogue outputs. Or play everything other than SACD & Blu-ray though a digital output of the Oppo and use the C2500 DAC.

For CDs, would an external DAC sound better than the DAC in the Oppo BDP-103? Better than the DAC in the Oppo UDP-205?

Well that would need to be determined by the listener and is why the options there. It's also not just the DAC sound, but the performance and matching of the source ie: CDP and preamp.

Off hand in a similar setup I have there is a difference in gain overall of the systems output between the CDP source sent to the preamp analogue or digital. Sending a analogue signal from another manufacturer CDPs output line level might not match well with the McIntosh C2500 input. Where as the C2500 built in DAC should be a perfect match to the C2500 preamp and analogue side of the unit. This can effect the sound quality also, as well as overall system output prior to distortion.

Would a CD and external DAC sound better than a hi-res recording (SACD or 24bit/192kHz PCM) played via the Oppo UDP-205’s DAC?)

Well the C2500 DAC does not play SACD or Blu-ray, aside from that, yes it can as I outlined above. Then there is all the other numerous things that change the SQ, DAC Chips, Quality of build components, differences in cables from source to the preamp and synergy between the two units.

IMO, the easiest way to get started in hi-res audio is via “shiny discs” such as SACD and Blu-ray, and by connecting the amp via the Oppo’s analog RCA line-level connections (either 2.0, 2.1, or 5.1). (Out of the Oppo product family, the UDP-205 plays the most types of discs and music files, and has the best DACs.)

Yes, but the OP wants to use his DAC in the C2500 also, it will also give him options to listen for himself as to what sounds better. What your not following is a number of threads by theo. He has been building up his system and trying to decide what components to get in the McIntosh family, what matches better, what's needed or not for his needs.

theo is mostly analogue and as I said trying to better his system mainly for that. However while he's doing that McIntosh also has Preamps that do both with a digital side to the preamp. So he started going in circles reading about all the different options from mac in the digital world. He was looking at all the different mac CDPs that came out over the years. Looking at the different prices and performance gains and weighing the options of cost and his actual needs.

I pretty much told him he doesn't need a $3000- $4000 CDP from McIntosh and for the cost and the fact he already owns a Oppo he will be set for his digital disc needs. At this point theo will not be racing out to buy $30 SACD disc. As time goes by and sometimes we find those disc in batches of CDs, he can play everything. He will be a casual listener of CDs and a avid listener of records and tapes. Well unless he starts getting blown away with all his new digital stuff and the continued building of his system.

This thread was started for him to find out if there was a big extreme in SQ between some different CD format types to warrant spending $1000s of more dollars, IMHO there is not. At least not in the way of a crappy 1978 reissued record on recycled vinyl oppose to a new remaster at 45rpm on 200g virgin vinyl pressed for discerning audiophiles, running a high end turntable front end.

It’s also relatively easy to download a 24/192 FLAC file from HDTracks to a PC. Here’s an example of a hi-res recording by one of the bands that the OP mentioned: http://www.hdtracks.com/van-halen-1984-2015-remaster (There are also sites that offer hi-res DSD downloads.)

On a standard USB drive, it’s easy to define folders, using the PC’s standard File Explorer. For example, create a folder called “Van Halen”.

Then simply use File Explorer to copy the downloaded music files from the PC to the folder on the USB drive.

Unplug the USB drive from the PC, and then plug it into the USB port on the front of the Oppo.

It’s very easy to navigate the music folders using the Oppo’s remote control.

There are more sophisticated ways to play downloaded files (e.g., DLNA networking), but the simple “sneaker-ware” method described above is easy, and reliable.

Yeah but none of this matters to theo in his purchasing of equipment and hooking it up right now. It is good for him to know how to hook his equipment up to a computer and with what he has he can do it. In this case I would go wireless with something like a Audioengine D2 WiFi 24bit DAC and use it for it's wifi only, but again it's another DAC also and he might like the sound of it, but I think my McIntosh D100 sounds better.

Maybe read post #1- #12 that theo made on page 1, and understand theos needs here. While you are giving some very good info you and others are going way out there in all digital world. This IMHO is all greek and confusing theo and really isn't needed to debate whats better or not. Lets show him how to use what he's got for his needs (witch isn't a lot) right now and help him hook it up.

 

[theoman]

Have you downloaded a 192kHz/24bit FLAC music file (e.g., from HDTracks), copied the file to a USB drive, then plugged the USB drive into the front USB port of your Oppo, and played it? (Instead of using this simple "sneaker-ware" method, you could use DLNA networking to play music files located on your PC or NAS.)

haven't tried this method, but will

 

[E-Stat]

haven't tried this method, but will

I have most of my music on a 256 GB USB thumb drive and occasionally play music through my 103 in the HT system. It works, but understand the limitations. The user interface is comparatively crude as compared with dedicated streamer designs. Ultimately, you're limited to the so-so performance of that unit. It uses a SMPS (switch mode power supply) and plain-as-a-cheese sandwich 5532 op amps in the analog output stage. And they're surface mounted so its difficult to upgrade or replace with FET modules as I was able to do with a Music Hall DAC - which transformed its performance. Actually, that's the same op amp McIntosh uses for a number of its SS preamps and the D100 DAC.

Things really don't get much better with the 205 either. You get a better SMPS, but it's not as quiet as a linear. You get somewhat better LM4562 op amps and balanced outputs, but still sacrifice transparency and depth as compared with discrete outputs. OTOH, there are guys like Dan Wright who rip out and replace both the power supply and analog section for a chunk of change.

Which is why Audio Research never uses op amps in the signal path. Note that your preamp is a hybrid design using JFETs and 6H30 triodes like that of my SP20. The phono preamp uses JFETs . Their DACs use similar hybrid or all tube designs along with linear power supplies using R-core transformers for lowest noise.

As 427 opined, use what you've got. If/when the time comes to invest, I would choose a long term go forward strategy and not invest in discontinued products.

 

[theoman]

Wow, I've have some reading to do with this thread! thanks for the input guys, the preamp comes in Monday.
Here's my CD collection thats been sitting for years and was used in my car before satellite radio. But I did get two SACD's last week.

 

[theoman]

Desk unit. Opponents HA-1 and newer 27" iMac. LBJ movie is pretty good!

 

[robert_kc]

I have most of my music on a 256 GB USB thumb drive and occasionally play music through my 103 in the HT system. It works, but understand the limitations.

when the time comes to invest, I would choose a long term go forward strategy and not invest in discontinued products.

If you're concerned with the latest state-of-the-art circuitry, why aren't you concerned with acquiring state-of-the-art recordings (i.e., something newer than 30+ year-old CDs)?

Garbage-in/garbage-out. Why invest thousands of dollars in a hi-fi system and feed it less than best-available recordings?

 

[E-Stat]

If you're concerned with the latest state-of-the-art circuitry, why aren't you concerned with acquiring state-of-the-art recordings (i.e., something newer than 30+ year-old CDs)?

You confuse me with someone else.

Kindly quote anything I've said to give that impression. I always choose high resolution versions of music when available.

I have long spoken about the limitations of the 44/16 Redbook format.

 

[4-2-7]

As 427 opined, use what you've got. If/when the time comes to invest, I would choose a long term go forward strategy and not invest in discontinued products.

Well that's the digital rabbit hole and why I suggested to the OP not to buy a 3-4 thousand dollar CDP. Why old McIntosh Digital components that are only a decade old or so lost all value to the point mac doesn't want them for trade in.

There is nothing in the digital world that's long term and not looked at as being discontinued as soon as you pull it from the box. There is nothing drastically different other than price when we look at all the different digital formats and delivery components. It's like a dog chasing it's tail and next week the new latest and greatest comes out.

As far as adding on to what he has just bought mainly for his analogue system a computer is nice and should be hooked up as a source.

 

[E-Stat]

There is nothing in the digital world that's long term and not looked at as being discontinued as soon as you pull it from the box.

As long as music is captured digitally, there will always be file formats - as that is the way recordings are and will be stored like any other data.

Not so much for optical media for distribution purposes only which is rapidly becoming more difficult to find.

 

[4-2-7]

Desk unit. Opponents HA-1 and newer 27" iMac. LBJ movie is pretty good!
View attachment 1235704

Yeah I have three 2011 27" iMacs in the house and a 3 terabyte time capsule all networked together, so about 7tb + of storage. I can play music thats on other computers around the house in my main system. I like the older units as there is room for big HDs and you have a disc player in them.

Two of them are hooked to two different systems with a Audioengine 24bit WiFi DAC that I use for it's wifi only so they are not leashed to the system and can be anywhere in the room. I haven heard what a computer speakers sounds like in a very long time.

 

[theoman]

I don't see myself downloading music for my audio system. The only digital I will be using is my CD's

 

[E-Stat]

I don't see myself downloading music for my audio system. The only digital I will be using is my CD's

Which can be easily converted to its native file format for a far more convenient playback experience. I ripped all my CDs many years ago.

They are now just collecting dust on the shelf.

 

[4-2-7]

I don't see myself downloading music for my audio system. The only digital I will be using is my CD's

Yeah I'v never bought a download.
I have lately been adding to my CDs as I have so many records and I have to have the time to play them. CDs are easier and are dirt cheap for a great majority of them.
But you still rip CDs to your computer as well as free download cards that come with your records.

Personally I like surfing youtube music, I learn so much there.

 

[4-2-7]

 

[E-Stat]

Enigma V sounds exactly like the band Enigma's album MCMXC A.D. from 1990.