Does anyone know why Capacitors can be so expensive?

[Cut-Throat]

I have been building speakers crossovers and using some cheapie capacitors. Some I find in old electronic shops for a few bucks. Then there are the Audiophile Grade Caps that cost about $75 apiece. Can anyone tell me why they are so expensive? I don't think I could pick out either in a Blind Test in a Speaker Crossover.

 

[Squidward]

The $75 cap is better. It has to be. After all, it costs a hell of a lot more! Just like all the audiophile gear people cram it in to. It's got to be good, it's got all the right names!

 

[reggaenaut]

If you cannot pick it out in a blind test, use the cheapie.

 

[NYListens]

I have been building speakers crossovers and using some cheapie capacitors. Some I find in old electronic shops for a few bucks. Then there are the Audiophile Grade Caps that cost about $75 apiece. Can anyone tell me why they are so expensive? I don't think I could pick out either in a Blind Test in a Speaker Crossover.

There is no doubt that some things are way over hyped and over priced. At the same time, no one would deny that there is clear difference in the sound quality between a Sony system and a McIntosh system. While both of these have a cd player, transistor amp and speakers, the quality of these components are what make them sound different. Those components are made of transistors, capacitors, resistors and a few sorted other electronic components.

 

[Endspec]

Profit Margin mostly.

 

[EchoWars]

I have been building speakers crossovers and using some cheapie capacitors. Some I find in old electronic shops for a few bucks. Then there are the Audiophile Grade Caps that cost about $75 apiece. Can anyone tell me why they are so expensive?

Film caps cost more (and last 50x longer) than electrolytics. Boutique film caps cost a lot more, but IMHO it is a case of diminishing returns.

For speaker crossovers, buy a reasonably priced film cap and move on. PE carries many that fit the bill nicely.

 

[Fast_Eddie]

For speakers, I think pretty highly of the Dayton 5% caps. Reasonable cost and I've heard a couple of pairs of speakers absolutely transformed by them.

Don't know as much about the tube gear, but the orage drop caps that several folks recomended to me worked out great for the coupling caps and didn't cost a lot. I'd have to wonder if anything "better" would make much of a difference. I'd be intrested to hear if anyone thinks power supply caps can be "heard". I would think any reasonably electrolytic would do the job there.

 

[diamondsouled]

I have been building speakers crossovers and using some cheapie capacitors. Some I find in old electronic shops for a few bucks. Then there are the Audiophile Grade Caps that cost about $75 apiece. Can anyone tell me why they are so expensive? I don't think I could pick out either in a Blind Test in a Speaker Crossover.

Boutique capacitors like V-Caps, Audio Notes, Mundorf, Auricap Teflons etc are so expensive because of supply and demand. At $199. for a single, .47uF 600 V, V-Cap cap how many are you going to sell? Not very many. Over $1500 for a single capacitor in the higher values like 3.3uF !!!

When I can buy equivalent FT3 Russian teflons for 6 dollars a pop and K40Ys for even less why would I break the bank on boutique caps?

Lar

 

[FalconEddy]

Then there are the Audiophile Grade Caps that cost about $75 apiece. Can anyone tell me why they are so expensive?

Well, some brands have gold and/or silver foil in them, AND they're double wound. Then, there's the teflon type that they also don't give away.

Let's not forget about the flagship items such as Duelund cast copper foil caps that go for $450 to $500 a pop for the 630V series.

. . Falcon

 

[salb203]

Egads... thank you but no thanks, I'll stick with my Sprague orange drops and Dayton capacitors...

Sal

 

[bricktop]

There is no doubt that some things are way over hyped and over priced. At the same time, no one would deny that there is clear difference in the sound quality between a Sony system and a McIntosh system. While both of these have a cd player, transistor amp and speakers, the quality of these components are what make them sound different. Those components are made of transistors, capacitors, resistors and a few sorted other electronic components.

I'd argue that there is way much more difference between a Sony and Mac system than just parts quality.... Mechanical and electrical engineering practices, design margins, construction quality standards and control to name a few... For instance, you'll never see output autoformers on a Sony amp. Most Sony receivers prolly have a single chip amp per channel or a bipolar output pair. Most McIntosh systems dwarf Sony products in design effort and complexity - becuase the company goals are different (low qty, high quality, high profit margin vs large qty, low qty, low profit margin). Basically, what I'm saying is that if you went through a Sony and replaced all the parts with uber-premium ones, you'd just have a really expensive, mediocre sounding amp, not a McIntosh . (ftr I own no mac products, so no bias here )

 

[Fast996]

This reminds me of the cable argument......There is a difference in caps depending on type and application.....example today replaced two Wima 2.7uf 400v caps with a Mundorf M-Supreme equivalent used as coupling caps.....The difference.... it is so large the extra $25 a piece is a non issue.

 

[Fast_Eddie]

This reminds me of the cable argument......

No doubt you're right.

 

[jon_s]

Keep in mind that not just audiophile caps are expensive -- the industrial caps that they are based on are also expensive. Most "audio" cap makers just order a big lot from a major manufacturer and put their own labels on 'em. Figure out what constructions you enjoy (i.e., film and foil mylar, metallized polypropylene), and try to find some made by CDE or SBE or Dearborn or Illinois or Electrocube or SCR, etc... the savings won't be as much as you expect, but you can at least feel confident in what you are getting, and can get a proper data sheet.

And, if you want to take things to the "next level", custom industrial or military parts can be very "serious"! Try Unlytic power supply caps, or CDE computer grade 'lytics, or Custom Electronics signal caps. In small quantities, these will all make Mundorf look cheap. A few years ago I was feeling curious and got a quote for .47uF teflon film caps at $126 each (ouch!). But, still cheaper than V-caps, and built-to-order.

 

[LinuxGuru]

Boutique Parts

Hi !


Forget once and for all boutique audio parts - they are just re-branded radio parts from large OEMs. BlackGate for example may be a good caps, but the company called BlackПate have not manufactured a single cap all over its history till bankruptcy, it simply sold parts made by third party. All extra 10x cost is a profit and charlatanism-type marketing. Unless you are building electronic for satellites or spacecrafts, you do not need any special radio parts. Just grab Japanese-made components and vise versa.

PS. Regarding comparison of McIntosh and Sony amps. Decent quality transistor amplifiers of the same type (e.g. discrete FET-based AB class) are simply indistinguishable in blind test.

 

[jon_s]

PS. Regarding comparison of McIntosh and Sony amps. Decent quality transistor amplifiers of the same type (e.g. discrete FET-based AB class) are simply indistinguishable in blind test.

But keep in mind that Decent Quality doesn't necessarily apply to a Best Buy Sony Receiver with a glorified op-amp output stage and an undersized power transformer when compared to 70 lbs of McIntosh power amplifier. I'm sure most measurement rigs would agree, too.

Now consider one of THESE discrete FET class AB Sony monsters, and the battle should become more interesting.

 

[Isotonic]

Dayton caps sound fine. They are an obvious improvement over the electrolytics that they replace in most of my projects. I believe thaya re a very balanced cap and an outstanding value. Sometimes they are the only option due to size considerations. That said:

I recently rebuilt an old Eico HF-86 from the ground up. I spared no expense and replaced the power supply caps with Mundorf Poly caps and black gates, and V-caps in the signal path. It had been previously repaired with Daytons and electrolytics for the power supply. The difference was enormous. This amp sounds stellar now. It is incredibly dnamic and transparant and it is only 100 hours into burn in.

I also recently recapped a pair of KLH 17's with Sonicaps. Previously I had done a couple of pairs of KLH 6's with Solens. Initially there was no difference, but after about 20 hours of burn in, the Sonicaps opened up the soundstage to a whole other catagory of quality. The soundstage was much deeper. The midrange retained the classic KLH musicality but was far less congested. The 17's are singing in a way that made me re-evaluate what they were capable of.

I have a close friend who has been fixing stereos professionally, tube and otherwise for about 28 years. I have heard many repairs of many makes of classic amps. Because he has to earn a living, he cannot use boutique caps. He relies on Solens, Xicons, Sprague etc. His repairs and tweaks sound very good and he has a great reputation. But this experiment with the Eico has proven to me that boutique caps can make a huge difference. The Eico with V-caps etc, sounds far better than any classic tube amp I have ever heard, and I have heard many.

I am not rich, and it took me a year to accumulate the parts needed for this restoration, but I am very happy that I waited. This amp is a genuine heirloom for my son now. I will take my time and use premium parts for all my amps and speakers from now on. Paricularly with classic amps and speakers like Eico and KLH.

 

[GordonW]

I'm normally of the opinion of "use a good film cap- any film cap- and be done with it"... but there's certain situations where there IS a quite noticeable difference between caps.

We were doing a custom crossover for a Tannoy Glenair (15" dual-concentric)- first go-around we had used a standard Jantzen poly cap (IME and IMHO, completely interchangeable with Dayton poly caps, as far as performance and quality are concerned). During the process, we decided to try the Jantzen Z-Silver cap in just ONE position (the main cap feeding the horn/HF driver in the dual concentric driver).

THAT definitely made a difference. Of course, this is a $10K speaker system, with very precise design and very high resolution... and it was being run by a VAC Phi 110i integrated amp ($22K) and a Sonic Frontiers CD player ($8K) at the time. Dunno if the same difference would have been as apparent, with more "normal" electronics"... but boy, did the apparent soundstage get more "realistic" in perceived dimensions (it sounded "more like the original room", to all of us... yeah, that's a really touchy-feely way of putting it, but I think most people can tell what I mean by that)...

Also, there are certain circuits that are MUCH more "vulnerable" to cap quality issues... I've found that circuits that have proper DC bias on the cap (at least 25% of the rated DC voltage across the cap at idle) seem to have MUCH less sensitivity to cap changes, than those with NO DC bias. Makes sense... it's about saturating the dielectric, to counteract the possibility of hysteresis effects at low signal levels... once the dielectric is "full of charge" from the DC, the AC signals don't have to worry as much about the dielectric "absorbing" signal and distorting the waveform...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[SaSi]

The only difference I was ever able to appreciate in passive components was less noise with metal film resistors instead of carbon ones - 25 years ago.

And for filter design one needs to have as exact values as possible if the filter is to be precice. But it is much cheaper to get a bunch and do some matching.

 

[similost]

You can only get the most of your $75 audiophile caps, if you also work a $25 audiophile fuse into the circuit... :-\