`Doomed' of Scotland

[Combwork]

It really seemed like a good idea. A while ago I bought a pair of Pioneer CS99A's cheap at a local auction. They perform well enough hooked up to a modern Kenwood surround sound receiver, but I wondered what they would sound like driven by a late 1970's/early 80's Pioneer amp. I started checking things on Google, and was lost................... How the *#%??~~~!! can someone with only a hazy idea of what they want make any kind of informed choice about anything? Then I found this forum. I feel a bit like a kid; exploring a sweet shop by the light of a candle; suddenly someone turns on the lights. The choice is dazzling, all those colours and that smell.... Humbugs or Peardrops; Chocolate or Taffy? I guess I'm doomed and better get used to it. But there's a wild card. I live in Scotland and repair antique musical boxes. My old workshop was alongside the house but was too big, so I'm moving benches etc down to the basement. A sale has been agreed for the workshop; after the debts have been paid there will be enough left over for a `0ne Time' purchase of something really nice. Little of this gear was available new in the UK; the only period advertisment I've ever seen in an old UK magazine was for the Pioneer 1250. So, can I ask a simple question please? Keeping with receivers, how would you gentle people assess the relative merits of the Pioneer 1980, the Marantz 2500/2600 or (please don't laugh) the Sansui G 33000? I'm serious; this would be a one time purchase. How do these three compare for pure listening pleasure? One thing I have learned is that Sansui equipment is very highly regarded for its build quality and `warm tube like' sound. HELP!!!!!!!!!! The Sansui really is a wild card; there was one on a German Hi-Fi site and one on Ebay. Both made the equavalent of over $4000 US.

My brain hurts.................Jim.

 

[ManFromPorlock]

Jim, welcome to AK.

Keep in mind that tastes change, especially when you're just starting something. You might want to hold off on buying something huge and expensive in favor of a 'lesser' receiver at a vastly lesser price, at least at first. Any of the 'good' brands' middle range of 'classic' receivers -- Pioneer SX-850, Sansui G-6000, Yamaha CR-820 -- can be had on eBay for at most $200, and usually for much less.

You can buy one of these and scarcely put a dent in your 'mad money', and you'll be hard pressed to tell one from the other or from, say, an SX-1980 at any sane listening level. I don't know enough about European radio (I assume from the fact that you want a receiver that radio's important) to recommend any specific receiver but maybe one of AK's European members will chime in.

I will recommend a dynamic processor, like the Pioneer SG-1, which is from the same era as the other equipment. A processor will add depth and detail to music from an LP and is probably the single best 'box' you can add on. It also helps with broadcast sources.

Later on, if you decide you do want to buy only the best, you'll have no trouble recouping your investment in mid-grade equipment.

 

[IXLR8]

It really seemed like a good idea. A while ago I bought a pair of Pioneer CS99A's cheap at a local auction. They perform well enough hooked up to a modern Kenwood surround sound receiver, but I wondered what they would sound like driven by a late 1970's/early 80's Pioneer amp. I started checking things on Google, and was lost................... How the *#%??~~~!! can someone with only a hazy idea of what they want make any kind of informed choice about anything? Then I found this forum. I feel a bit like a kid; exploring a sweet shop by the light of a candle; suddenly someone turns on the lights. The choice is dazzling, all those colours and that smell.... Humbugs or Peardrops; Chocolate or Taffy? I guess I'm doomed and better get used to it. But there's a wild card. I live in Scotland and repair antique musical boxes. My old workshop was alongside the house but was too big, so I'm moving benches etc down to the basement. A sale has been agreed for the workshop; after the debts have been paid there will be enough left over for a `0ne Time' purchase of something really nice. Little of this gear was available new in the UK; the only period advertisment I've ever seen in an old UK magazine was for the Pioneer 1250. So, can I ask a simple question please? Keeping with receivers, how would you gentle people assess the relative merits of the Pioneer 1980, the Marantz 2500/2600 or (please don't laugh) the Sansui G 33000? I'm serious; this would be a one time purchase. How do these three compare for pure listening pleasure? One thing I have learned is that Sansui equipment is very highly regarded for its build quality and `warm tube like' sound. HELP!!!!!!!!!! The Sansui really is a wild card; there was one on a German Hi-Fi site and one on Ebay. Both made the equavalent of over $4000 US.

My brain hurts.................Jim.

Just having a Walker short bread cookie with my tea reading the above. The quest is fun. You also have some brands over in Europe that are wonderful that are not well known here stateside. I bought my first Dual turntable while stationed in Germany. Picking a receiver was hard and I listened to plenty. Bought a Kenwood KR-9400 still use it almost every day. My wife has had a Pioneer SX 980 from day one. I think it sounds great and smile every time I see it. On this Forum is an endless parade on cool elecrtronics most built with good design and pride. Repairing music boxes you know what is designed well, what feels great and no doubt have a good ear. That's a better start than most.

 

[Combwork]

Thanks people,

What you've said makes a lot of sense and shows up the strength of a Forum like this. There are not many places where one can talk to people who have a good working knowledge of different makes and compare like with like. The great thing about vintage audio is it's compatability; something that works well in Boston USA is going to work just as well in Dundee, Scotland. Correct voltage supply is more of an irritant than a real problem. Radio is important to me yes, but we don't have that many FM stations here; maybe half a dozen or so within normal range and a couple more that can be pulled in depending on time of day, but the big growth area in UK radio is digital. I preffer FM as some digital broadcasts are very compressed, but they're perfectly listenable to, especially Talk Radio. A combined DVD/VCR unit hooked into a receiver via its AUX socket would give 2 channel stereo sound from TV, Video Tape, DVD, CD plus vith a TV digital decoder louped through, broadcast sound from just about everywhere else. ManFromPorlock makes an good point; try mid price brand receivers from different manufacturers, get an idea of what they sound like then if I still want a top line receiver I can make a more informed choice; maybe selling what I've already bought to help fund it. The only thing is, most of this equipment is going to be a minimum of 25 years old yes? It may well be, as many sellers on Ebay say "working perfectly", but almost certainly the values of various componants will have drifted well beyond manufacturers specifications. What I'm trying to get a feel for is a general impression of different manufacturers basic sounds. From what I've read, (and this is probably a gross over simplification), the choice between Pioneer and Marantz seems to be as much based on how they look as anything else; they have a very good quality sound that's broadly similar. Sansui have something hard to define (`tube like'; `silky'; `clean but not too clinical' etc.). They also seem to sell for more $. I'm genuinly curious about this; going by the one on Ebay and the one on the German site, the Sansui G 33000 sells for at least three times as much as broadly similar (in terms of power) models from Pioneer and Marantz. Why is this?

Walkers shortbread? Excellent with tea or even coffee `though I have to admit that UK coffee doesn't bear much resemblence to the stuff you guys drink. There are indeed some very good UK/European brands that maybe didn't sell in large numbers in the USA; you'd have to go a long way and pay an incredible price for a better record deck than a Garrard 301, but top end Hi-Fi by say, Quad or Williamson tended to be quite low power. To get high volume you had to have big efficient speakers such as Lowther or Tannoy. The result was well worth it; Lowther speakers are amoungst the best you can get but apart from being very expensive, they are seriously big. Beautifull sound though; I had a pair once.

I've bought a non working Pioneer SA-8800 (described as `working before being stored away 2 years ago, now the protect light comes on') from a UK supplier. Once it gets here and I've got it working, it will maybe give me a starting point for comparing different sounds. One thing I have to keep in mind is that although I've got free delivery from FedEx, this also is a `one shot'. If I'm going to bring something in that would normally cost $300+ to deliver, I may as well take advantage of this to bring in something big and heavy.

Best Regards, Jim.

 

[ToTo Man]

Hi Jim,

Welcome to AK!

Nice to have another Scot on board :thmbsp:

 

[2DualsNotEnough]

If it were me,Id think about maybe the SX-1250 as the big purchase,since Im sure it will be hundreds,maybe even a thousand dollars less than the 1980,2600,33000,etc,and will sound just as good,many say even better than those monsters.
For the money you save,I would consider doing two things:Have a respected tech go through the unit,since time will have done its duty on it.Second,I would strongly suggest a speaker upgrade.Pioneer made the HPM-100's which many,many people on this forum swear by.And of course there is a plethora of speaker choices,many made by several of the wonderful companies on your side of the pond-Kef,Wharfedale,Mordaunt-Short,Celestion,B&W,Goodmans,the list goes on and on.Your 1250(or Yamaha 1020,or Sansui G-9000,or Marantz 2325,etc.)will have more than enough power for just about any speaker you choose.
Have fun,and welcome to the addiction :thmbsp:
Jimmy

 

[ToTo Man]

Hey Jim, if you do happen to find a respected tech please forward on his details because the techs here in Glasgow don't know one end of a cassette deck from the other :thumbsdn: .

If your looking for that 'center-piece' attraction then yes, nothing beats a SX-1250/1280/1980, Marantz 2500/2600, Sansui G9000/22000/33000, but you can still get VERY good sounding pieces for a fraction of the price one of the above models will cost. And I agree, you should also consider which 'house sound' you like. E.g. as a brief simplification, Yamahas are thought to give a clear crisp accurate sound, but in some systems they may sound thin, lifeless and harsh. Marantz's are thought to give a nice smooth comforting sound, but paired with a dull pair of speakers the sound may be too dark, etc..... So, I'd say it's got a lot to do with the composition of the whole system your putting together. It's a (sometimes frustrating) process of trial and error with me finding the right 'match', but so far I haven't made too many mistakes thankfully and I do enjoy the whole experimentation thing .

Hope this helps,

 

[Fernzee]

If it were me,Id think about maybe the SX-1250 as the big purchase.
Jimmy

I agree with Jimmy. The 1250 has a very excellent build quality. I am finding that anyone can do minor repairs on the machine without a problem and using this forum.

Also, since you said you like to listen to FM, the SX-1250 has one of the best tuners built into it. With a good antenna, you will be picking up FM stations you didn't know existed.

Finally, with the 1250, it will cost about half then a 1980 or simular units. But you will still be getting a lot for its price. Just search the forums here to see how much praise is heaped on the 1250. There is usally a lot on Ebay to choose from. Also, if it costs half as much, that means your budget for getting some kick-ass speakers or other pieces of gear increases!

Just my two cents.

And finally, welcome to AK!

 

[KingBubba]

I would agree with the idea that picking one of the lesser units will still give you the sound you need and will give you more funds to spend on speakers, which are ultimately what you really listen to. I have had a Sansui G 6000 for many years which I bought used for $75. Until I found AK recently and got the spec info on the receiver, I always thought that the output of the G 6000 was well over 100 watts per channel, not the 60 wpc that it really is. It has all the power I need, as I barely have to crack the volume, and the quality of sound is superb. I recently saw a G 6000 sell for around $60 plus shipping. Money spent on power and prestige is one thing but money spent on quality speakers truly affects what you are going to hear in the long run.

I have also owned a Pioneer 1280 and that is the standard by which I judge all receivers that I presently own. It was a wonder. Power, clarity, great FM reception, versatility and it looks great. What more could one ask for? Some day I will have another one I hope.

I envy your search for your "Dream System". It is a lot of fun hunting for something that will give you so much pleasure for so many years.

 

[Combwork]

Thanks Guys,

The Pioneer 1250 was my first choice, partly because it's the only one I've seen advertised in a UK magazine (old Mayfair from the 1970's) so I guessed there'd be some chance of finding one on this side of the water. I think that alas, the days of `cheap' 1250's might be over; there's one on Ebay with several bids sitting at $480 with over 3 days to go. There's a 5590 which I'm told is the export model multi voltage version of the 1250; very fetching in black with a starting price of $699. Possibly a bit high as there's a 1250 with a `buy it now' price of $650.

One thing I agree with 100%. If I can save some $ by buying something a little less wild, spending the money I've saved on getting it checked over by someone your side of the water who really knows what he's doing makes real sense. ToTo Man; there's someone I've heard of down in England, a retired Pioneer dealer who now collects old audio who could maybe do this; I've not had anything done by him yet but he's well recomended by a friend of mine who's also into old audio. I'll end you a PM with contact details but if I'm bringing one in, it makes sense to get it checked over. I'm really tempted by that black `Euro' model 5590. It's got quite a bad scrape mark on one side so might be reasonable. Of course, what could really screw things up is if the couple who are buying the workshop back out. Maybe I should count my money before I count my chickens~~~~~~~~~ Jim.

 

[GordonW]

Along with the SX1250, also consider the SX1010, the one that started the whole mega-receiver thing. Plenty of power for all but the most ridiculously inefficient speakers, and IMHO, a sweeter sound than the later models. I really think they best got it right with the FIRST generation, there...

Also, the SX1010 is bog-standard in its parts usage. No "unobtanium" parts, unlike some of the later units. Could be quite a factor, if available service is more rudimentary...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[IXLR8]

I noticed a post over on Steve Hoffman Music forums - "Anyone here going to the Scottish Hi-Fi show in Edinburgh in October?"

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=91248

 

[westend]

This might even add more confusion to your future purchase but....separates offer a lot of flexibility when building up a system. A Pioneer, Sansui, Yamaha , Kenwood, etc. amp and tuner combination will really show the definitive sound of the different lines. The mfg's. seemed to throw a little more effort into separates than receivers, also. Don't let me dissuade you from any of the TOTL receivers, though. They are great feats of electrical engineering.

 

[Combwork]

Seperates versus receivers.

Thanks Westend,

I take your point but they also have interconnects, and I've personal knowledge of the fun to be had chasing down background hum and occasional dropouts from cables you `know' are ok. To build up a `dream' system, first I've got to decide what I want it to do. Is it a stereo system, a surround sound system or what? To answer my own question; `yes' to both. I know it's possible to get a decent AV amplifier that will give good quality 2 channel stereo plus full surround sound, but what I'm going for is the best reciever amp I can get (subject to availability and cost) for top quality analogue stereo, (which is what I listen to most) plus perhaps later a seperate surround decoder feeding surround sound to the front two speakers via the receiver's AUX input, and the rear speakers driven by a Pioneer SA-8800. This amplifiers sole job would be to drive the rear speakers........... That's the plan; like most it's subject to change, modification or total abandonment without notice......... Jim.

 

[Fernzee]

Hemmm.....
maybe you should get a Quad reciever? Lotta good information about those out there.

And where in Scotland do you live? I have only ever been there once, but I loved it, and purely for the people (eventhough the countryside is amazing). I was traveling around by myself as a 21 year old and everywhere I was accepted and warmly greeted and helped out. You have quite the country.