Elna Orange capacitor.

RocketMonkey

Active Member
So I've seen a few of these orange Elna capacitors and never seen one crap out or test poorly. Infact they typically beat the pants of the new Elna and nichicons I tend to use. They have an epoxy seal so perhaps that contributes to such high performance at their current age. Normaly when doing a restoration I shotgun the electrolytic capacitors for long term service sake. However these show no sign of weakness and test better than the parts I have on hand. Literally every thing I can measure they are better (These two I have today anyway 16 volt, 47uF) than any cap I have of the same capacitace. Any thoughts? I know its not a big deal but don't like going backwards.
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I do not remember having one failed.
(although I am not in the audio repair business myself, so I have no references for "amounts", I refurbished some 15 amps total last few years and I did maybe 100 amp repairs totally during my life....).
This is worth a discussion, indeed.
 
So I've seen a few of these orange Elna capacitors and never seen one crap out or test poorly. . . . Literally every thing I can measure they are better (These two I have today anyway 16 volt, 47uF) than any cap I have of the same capacitace. . . .

Are you testing for leakage current?
 
I believe the orange Elnas in old equipment are low leakage caps. Most of the ones I have run across are low values, 4.7uf and down. I automatically replace them with films. If they are 10uf or above, Nichicon KLs.

That's not to say they are automatically bad. I'm not doubting you, RocketMonkey, just curious if you test for leakage.

Since I am strictly a hobbyist and almost always working on my own equipment, I replace all electrolytics, just because I enjoy the process of working on old equipment.

(Edited for clarity)
 
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Im absolutely doing it for fun, I just dont have enough stuff to work on and its nice having someone else pay for the parts. My leakage tester measures mA not uA so I tested it but All I know is that the needle did not deflect at all. Currently I have no fuse in my DMM that has a sensitive DC current range(Dont ask, I'm dyslexic and my meter is a Billy Bad Ass industral meter that uses surprisingly expensive fuses). But at -88 degrees unless that thing is breaking down at operated voltage its good. Its in a feedback circuit so I think it has 200 mV dc on it and sees a divided phono board output through it. I too like to replace low leakage with films but 47uF isn't free. I ordered the fuses, what I should do however is get a high precision panel current meter and panel volt meter. Put them in a box with a suitable adjustable power supply and have a leakage tester that tests down to uAs. I don't want to modify my other leakage tester.
 
The current line of Nichicon Low-leakage capacitors (UKL) come in 105 C rating and you can get them with 10% tolerance specs. I have seen some of the orange caps out of spec, but not nearly the rate of other general purpose caps of that age. I'll leave them if I don't have the value in film or KL, but I typically have the value. No reason to leave 30-40 year old 'lytic caps in my gear.
 
But are you comparing them to modern UKLs or to non-low-leakage Panasonics and Nichicons like FC, KW, etc? Gotta compare apples to apples you know.

I can't measure all the parameters, so replace for freshness of the electrolyte. They do have a finite lifespan, and when I have a unit opened up, I don't feel like having to potentially go back in again. Yes, even modern caps can fail which would require opening back up, but I can't foresee that.

If you feel fine with your taking each cap out, doing multiple measurements, and then putting it back into the circuit, go for it. But given the test equipment I have (or don't have in this case), my time is better spent replacing with new.
 
Its scholastic, I don't test capacitors that I want to throw in the trash. But the ones that never seem to be degraded or fail Im scratching my head, particularly if they test better than what I'd be replacing it with. Im comparing them to Muse, FG, various other nichicons and all the way up to a 100 volt Elna silmic II. I have no low leakage modern caps in stock so I may try some of those, I generaly use poly for low leakage because those don't tend to be large values. However the design intent of the audio grade cap is I believe to have low esr and maintain that low esr into the audio frequency. This orange cap is much better at that than any cap I have on hand. So no I don't mind measuring 2 capacitors.
 
Yeah, I understand your testing method. All those cap series you mentioned, however, are not low leakage caps, whereas the orange elnas ARE low-leakage caps. If you look at datasheets, even these modern caps are spec'd at 0.02CV typically, yet the original orange caps (and their modern equivalent the Nichicon UKL series) are rated at 0.002CV, a MUCH lower leakage value. So, to be fair in comparison, you really do need to test some of the UKLs before saying that the orange Elnas test better than new caps. If you're just looking at capacitance value, I agree that it seems the manufacturers of the modern caps are "rolling" them closer to the - 20% value of rated capacitance. That's why it's nice that the UKLs can be found at a 10% rating.
 
You have to test value, dissipation factor and DC leakage to be sure, but I can't remember ever seeing more than 1 or 2 of those orange Elnas with a problem. But, once it's out it ain't goin' back in. Modern caps do way better on DC leakage than the data sheets suggest, but I make the assumption that when you buy a part specified for low leakage, it will stay low leakage over time. There no guarantee of that with general purpose parts. No guarantee they'll go bad either, but it's not a test I have the time or inclination to make. If it's small, replace with film. If not, use a UKL.
 
I have replaced a few of the old orange caps that were bad. But only because of that corrosive brown glue that was used by some equipment manufaturers.
 
All those cap series you mentioned, however, are not low leakage caps, whereas the orange elnas ARE low-leakage caps.

This is why I was surprised to see this cap beating them, its 40 some odd years old and better in all the parameter I can test(phase, Q, dissipation, ESR @ 120hz, 1khz and 10khz. Value changes less at higher frequency also). I would not have been suprised if it beat them at what it was designed for. It may indeed fail a leakage test but I will test it when my fuses show up. Ill buy some low leakage electrolytics on my next parts order for sure. 47uF is too large for film. I don't think I recall seeing these large value orange elnas on the prior 2275 I did, in fact a lot of components are different.

So, to be fair in comparison, you really do need to test some of the UKLs before saying that the orange Elnas test better than new caps.

I made no such assumption, I said they test better than any of the other 47uF capacitors of any type or voltage that I have on hand. I certainty will compare them once I have some UKLs.
 
Grey Marcon's normally also test better than Panasonic FC, for example. Like the low leakage Elna's also 40 year old, and most times replaced by inferior.
 
I noticed the muse cap has continued to drop as I leave it hooked up, seeing this prompted me to let them both sit for a while. The orange Elna stoped at .13 micro amps. The muse .42 micro amps.
 
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