Energy 22 Reference Connoisseur Speakers

[braxus]

Been doing some research on these speakers. I'm looking for a set myself and may have tracked down one locally. Anyway first off who here has owned these speakers? How do they compare against newer speakers? My other option is to buy a set of new B&W 804S speakers and it would be good to know how those compare. I know both brands are power hungry. Someone mentioned that they modified their pair for bi-wiring. Is it easy to do on these speakers? I'd like to run them that way if possible. Like a dual amp situation. Not sure if that would work on a 2 way speaker though. I am aware of some of the details on these speakers and have seen the pdf file on Energy's site. From what I know is the frequency response on the RC versions of the 22 series was 25Hz to 45Khz. That's pretty respectable numbers for a speaker design started in 1982. I don't see many modern speakers doing this today, even though Energy used a 7 inch woofer. I've seen the woofer out of the box and it doesn't seem all that special, other then I've been told and read the surround has been stitched on to avoid seperation. Plus the RC versions were much better in frequency response then the lower versions of the 22. I actually had a chance to listen to these in the 80s and was impressed with them, though I couldn't afford them at the time. I don't think Energy has made a speaker as good since. Again my main comparison is B&W, so if you can compare those two speaker lines it would be great. I currently own a set of B&W 602 S3 speakers which are only 2 years old. But I was always planning to upgrade from them, so they were only meant to be temporary.

Speaking of sound- how do the 22s sound with midrange and voice, especially since this is where B&W shines.

 

[dj_AmTraX]

I have not listened to those, but I have done some serious listening sessions on the V2.8.

I think Energy speakers sounds GREAT for the price, but resale value is not to par with B&W. Little know by many and lack of dealers makes them hard to sell used. Keep that in mind. I have a pair of JM Lab Electra that suffers the same issues.

 

[braxus]

Well the stereo store with a set of these here are asking $900 for a used pair in oak finish. Not exactly a great deal in my opinion. I've seen these sell for way less. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'd like to know B&W can't out better them.

 

[g 22000]

Hi Braxus, I am just a little north of you in Prince Rupert.I have been looking for a pair of connoisseurs too. I've had my Pro 22's for 23 years (paid $800.)and the only regret was not buying the Reference Connoisseur's. I have both tweeters rebuilt recently and have been thinking about recapping the crossovers. Since I found this site I have aquired 3 more Pro 22's but no Connoisseurs yet. Would love to find a pair in rosewood.
Al

 

[braxus]

If I get any more information on a couple more pairs, I'll let you know. I still might get the ones I found down here, but I'm wanting more info first.

Does anyone know what the original list price was on the 22 RC speakers? Canadian pricing if you can.

 

[braxus]

Hard to sell used. Maybe. They are pretty popular up here in Canada. So much so the store I'm enquiring has marked them up more then they are worth. I don't know what the original list on the RCs were, but almost $1000 for a 2 way speaker from 26 years ago-wow! I will probably listen to them before deciding.

 

[dnewma04]

I believe Bigerik has some of these speakers and I believe that someone who infrequently posts rebuilds the tweeters and recommends some horn loaded tweeter that is drastically more sensitive than the stock tweeter as a drop in replacement.

 

[Unican_Eric]

I believe Bigerik has some of these speakers and I believe that someone who infrequently posts rebuilds the tweeters and recommends some horn loaded tweeter that is drastically more sensitive than the stock tweeter as a drop in replacement.

I know that I have recommended the Sound Dynamics aluminum horn tweeter as a replacement for the original. They are cheaper and are an exact drop in fit. Also made by the same company, API.

I also understand the want of keeping the speaker original. But I cant afford the $310 for the tweeter rebuild.

 

[Bigerik]

Ok, the tweeter rebuild is $130 (last time I checked, not $310). The tweeter is about the best part of the 22's, and it is NOT a good idea to swap them. THat is an incredible tweeter in there.
Actually, they sell VERY easily. Most of the time Canuck Audio Mart has at least one person looking for them. Figure these guys ran about $1800-$3000 when new 25 years ago. UHF magazine picked them as a reference. These are a serious piece of equipment.
However, like any true high end speaker, they are VERY revealing of what is in front of them. A 70's vintage receiver, don't much care which one, will NOT sound good with these guys. Although they mostly sound best with tubes, something like a Bryston 3B is probably the best choice for it. Very clean SS with lots of balls and lots of bass control. That is the down side of the low bass (and it is serious low bass. I have a picture of a 27hz sine wave with no distortion!), is that they cabinets do not control the woofers very well. You need the amp to do it.
Let me know if I can help in some way.
Erik

 

[Bigerik]

BTW, the price difference is based on finish. Flat black being cheapest. Stunningly, heartbreakingly beautiful piano black being most expensive.

Oh, and that is a pic of one of mine in the OP's first post.

 

[fazman]

These speakers are excellent.
Bigerik, I will disagree with you regarding replacing the tweeter IF and I mean IF you do it right. Both of the tweeters in my Ref Conns were toast. so what I did (because I don't have the software) was send the original woofers in to Madisound. They measured the woofers for me and designed a crossover to match a pair of Vifa XT ring radiators. I had a freind custom fit the Vifas in the metal housing that held the hyperdome tweeter.

After about two months of tweeking the original redesigned crossover I have to say the result are stunning! I had several freinds over and listen to them and they were ALL floored by the sound. And all of them were seasoned audiophiles. The cabinets underwent some serious dampening upgrades and nothing but quality caps , resistors and coils were used in the design.
The only thing I can go by here is memory as I use to have the Ref 22's not the conns, and to my ears the modded versions sound much better and much more balanced than the originals.
Either way though even if you go for a pair with the original tweeters, you still will have an outstanding pair of speakers.
The Rosewood finish makes them sound much better too.

 

[Bigerik]

These speakers are excellent.
Bigerik, I will disagree with you regarding replacing the tweeter IF and I mean IF you do it right. Both of the tweeters in my Ref Conns were toast. so what I did (because I don't have the software) was send the original woofers in to Madisound. They measured the woofers for me and designed a crossover to match a pair of Vifa XT ring radiators. I had a freind custom fit the Vifas in the metal housing that held the hyperdome tweeter.

After about two months of tweeking the original redesigned crossover I have to say the result are stunning! I had several freinds over and listen to them and they were ALL floored by the sound. And all of them were seasoned audiophiles. The cabinets underwent some serious dampening upgrades and nothing but quality caps , resistors and coils were used in the design.
The only thing I can go by here is memory as I use to have the Ref 22's not the conns, and to my ears the modded versions sound much better and much more balanced than the originals.
Either way though even if you go for a pair with the original tweeters, you still will have an outstanding pair of speakers.
The Rosewood finish makes them sound much better too.

Ok, but lets be honest. That is NOT replacing the tweeter. That is basically building a whole new speaker. That is no longer an Energy 22.
Again, the tweeter is the best part of the 22. The woofers are nice, but nothing that special. Not much to the cabinet either. They were a speaker built around a really good tweeter.

 

[fazman]

Ok, but lets be honest. That is NOT replacing the tweeter. That is basically building a whole new speaker. That is no longer an Energy 22.
Again, the tweeter is the best part of the 22. The woofers are nice, but nothing that special. Not much to the cabinet either. They were a speaker built around a really good tweeter.

Yeah I agree with you there... But, if you compare the hyperdome with some of the better tweeter offerings today, I think that you'd find that speaker manufacurers have come a long way in making an all around better tweeter, admittedly at a cost. The hyperdome was a good tweeter no question but in my opinion not as good as some of the better Vifas, Seas and Scan Speaks.
And... When we talk about replacing the tweeter, you might as well build another speaker cause it is almost impossible to just replace with out serious redesign dispite what I've read from many people on this subject.
The hyperdome had its own set of parameters that worked for the crossover that was designed for it. Replacing the tweeter and not reworking the network to match well with the new tweeter is an exercise in futility.
About the woofer, now looking at it when out of the cabinet I agree, it doesn't look like much, but when in the Ref Conn cabinet, the bass you get is literally shocking. There are much quicker woofers out there but I think the long throw design of the energy woofer works great for getting gut wrenching bass out of an eight inch woofer. I've yet to hear an eight incher provide lower bass yet still remain very neutral in the midrange. Maybe some transmission line designs might accomplish this but ported?

 

[tc880]

I have a pair of ref cons that i purchased new in 1988 in the pebble black finish, a really hard speaker to compete against. Unless you spend a considerably amount of money on lets say aerial 10t, 20t or b&w 800,801s speakers if these speakers 4 sale are in good to excellent condition i think the $900 is worth dropping. And yes execellent tweeters they spent over a million in research in developing them. But the bass goes where most speakers dont. great find !

 

[Unican_Eric]

Ok, the tweeter rebuild is $130 (last time I checked, not $310).Erik

Well usually people would get them done in pairs. I used the $310 price point because the fellow with the ad on (you know where) charges $160 each, (The last time I checked) So 2x 160 =, oh darn, I did make a mistake, Its $320.....my bad.

Even at $130 each its still $260 then shipping. To much for my blood.

 

[Bigerik]

Well usually people would get them done in pairs. I used the $310 price point because the fellow with the ad on (you know where) charges $160 each, (The last time I checked) So 2x 160 =, oh darn, I did make a mistake, Its $320.....my bad.

Even at $130 each its still $260 then shipping. To much for my blood.

If you can't afford to pay that, fair enough. I just want to make sure that we have accurate info in there. Still a HUGE difference between $160 per tweeter, and the $310 you quoted. People need not necessarily do them in pairs. Might be a big enough difference that would scare some owners off from trying it.
I contacted Chris at ABI to confirm current pricing. There had been some talk in the past about an AK member discount. I will let everyone know what I hear.

 

[dnewma04]

If you can't afford to pay that, fair enough. I just want to make sure that we have accurate info in there. Still a HUGE difference between $160 per tweeter, and the $310 you quoted. People need not necessarily do them in pairs. Might be a big enough difference that would scare some owners off from trying it.
I contacted Chris at ABI to confirm current pricing. There had been some talk in the past about an AK member discount. I will let everyone know what I hear.

His first post was a little vague, but he meant 310.00/pr for the tweeters which is right in line with the 160.00 per tweeter number that he referenced.

If it were me, for that kind of money, I'd be upgrading tweeters.

 

[BroonsBane]

These are wicked speakers boys. After hearing a pair with original tweeters there might be less talk here of replacing them with something else :yes:

 

[Bigerik]

His first post was a little vague, but he meant 310.00/pr for the tweeters which is right in line with the 160.00 per tweeter number that he referenced.

If it were me, for that kind of money, I'd be upgrading tweeters.

Just to clarify, changing tweeters is NOT the same thing as upgrading tweeters.

Energy built these speakers basically around the tweeter. From what I read, they had many hundreds of hours of design work in getting the crossover just right for that tweeter and woofer in that cabinet. That is why they used a different crossover in the Ref Con vs the regular 22. You can change the tweeter, but then you no longer have an Energy 22 Ref Con. It might be better, but more than likely, as was indicated above, it will be worse, as the crossover would have to be re engineered to accommodate the new tweeter. Therefore, we move from the realm of restoration and repair, to DIY speaker design.

These were very well respected and expensive speakers. Unlike with many speakers of the era, we actually have a source of parts available to keep them correct and working. It seems a shame to me to ruin them by making them into a DIY project, but that is just my opinion. UHF magazine still keeps a pair as one of their reference speakers, 25 years after they were introduced!

As far as the pricing goes, there is a huge difference between $160 and $310. I don't want to scare off a potential re builder or restorer by having pricing listed on the thread that seems almost 100% too high. I have had many pairs of these in the past, and have only needed to repair one tweeter.

 

[dnewma04]

Well, I wouldn't replace the tweeters unless it was an upgrade. All standard rules would apply, including reworking the crossover.

Erik, you are comparing each to a "pair". You need to be comparing 320.00/pr to the 310.00/pr he mentioned. Even if it can be done for 260.00/pr, thats not a huge difference by any stretch of the imagination.