EPI M180 Speakers

[Ghonk]

These are on ebay right now. The surrounds are cracked and need to be replaced.

Yeah those are local to me,i had some interest in them.
They are also listed on craigslist for $140 rather then the $125 on ebay.
So i'm guessing they would take the $125 minus the ebay and paypal fees if you contacted them at craigslist,which would be about $108.

THEN i started looking at SOLD pairs on ebay.
2 pair sold IN MY AREA for about $150, REFOAMED.

The foam kits are about $35 shipped,so i would have almost $150 into them.
ONE PROBLEM,i would have to get someone to refoam them,so now the cost would be to much.

I would be better off waiting for a ready to play pair,IF i was going to get some.

Also the reviews are all over the place,from spectacular to horrible design.
Yeah i know everyone likes something different,but i was beginning to think i was reading about some bose.

 

[watchdog005]

Yeah those are local to me,i had some interest in them.
They are also listed on craigslist for $140 rather then the $125 on ebay.
So i'm guessing they would take the $125 minus the ebay and paypal fees if you contacted them at craigslist,which would be about $108.

THEN i started looking at SOLD pairs on ebay.
2 pair sold IN MY AREA for about $150, REFOAMED.

The foam kits are about $35 shipped,so i would have almost $150 into them.
ONE PROBLEM,i would have to get someone to refoam them,so now the cost would be to much.

I would be better off waiting for a ready to play pair,IF i was going to get some.

Also the reviews are all over the place,from spectacular to horrible design.
Yeah i know everyone likes something different,but i was beginning to think i was reading about some bose.

These are great speakers. Unlike most bookshelf speakers that cannot fill a large room these will get more powerful in bigger rooms without losing their linearity but sound equally as good in big rooms at low levels. They do not lose their linearity as you adjust the volume unlike so many speakers that only sound good at a certain volume. Get the heavier parallel wired 4 ohm with woofers properly refoamed, put them on 12 to 24" stands. Give them some time to burn in with the amplifier you are using. There's an adjustment time for these as your amplifier literally become one with the speakers. You will know it when it reaches that point. These speakers have balls for their size like a floor stander but cannot be on the ground like a floor standing speaker mainly because there's a woofer and tweeter that are along the bottom of the cabinet and those cannot be that close to the floor and sound as this speaker was intended. Your ears have to be somewhere between the top and bottom of the cabinets. They sound best when 10 to 20 feet apart. Too close together and the bass gets cancelled out as if having dual subwoofers too close. The wide dispersion gets wasted too if they are too close together.

 

[watchdog005]

Yeah those are local to me,i had some interest in them.
They are also listed on craigslist for $140 rather then the $125 on ebay.
So i'm guessing they would take the $125 minus the ebay and paypal fees if you contacted them at craigslist,which would be about $108.

THEN i started looking at SOLD pairs on ebay.
2 pair sold IN MY AREA for about $150, REFOAMED.

The foam kits are about $35 shipped,so i would have almost $150 into them.
ONE PROBLEM,i would have to get someone to refoam them,so now the cost would be to much.

I would be better off waiting for a ready to play pair,IF i was going to get some.

Also the reviews are all over the place,from spectacular to horrible design.
Yeah i know everyone likes something different,but i was beginning to think i was reading about some bose.

Yeah be patient and wait for a pair in your area to come up again so you don't have to pay the big shipping cost to ship a restored pair. Make sure they are refoamed properly or the voice coils will rub inside the magnet. You can test this by lightly pushing in the woofer at the center dust cap and make sure you don't hear a rubbing sound which would indicate they were poorly aligned. Not only would this make them sound bad it will wear away the voice coils and lead to failure and then you need them re-coned. Might as well ditch them or trade them in with Huw at Human so he can rebuild them. He might give you a few dollars for them towards a trade in.

 

[satellite65]

Lots of misinformation flying around in this thread IMO... All 3 sets of 180's that I've owned had gold ring tweeters, including the unmolested pair that I bought from the original owner last year. All 3 sets had 8 screws for each woofer and were just under 40# each. (I've never seen an 8" EPI woofer that didn't have 8 screws, and I've refoamed at least 50 of them, including several which were paired with each of the 3 tweeter styles).

All EPI 8" woofers except those used in the 601/602 are 8 ohm impedance. With 2 in a cabinet there are only 2 choices. Wire them in parallel for 4 ohms or in series for 16 ohms. Regardless of what Huw's site says, 2-module versions like the 180 can't be 8 ohms. Take a look at the 202/250 schematics. One of them has a series/parallel switch for 16/4 ohms. The 180 schematic matches the 4 ohm switch position.

The original Masonite tweeters do not have ferofluid but they have larger magnets and are considered by many, myself included, to be the best version.

 

[watchdog005]

Lots of misinformation flying around in this thread IMO... All 3 sets of 180's that I've owned had gold ring tweeters, including the unmolested pair that I bought from the original owner last year. All 3 sets had 8 screws for each woofer and were just under 40# each. (I've never seen an 8" EPI woofer that didn't have 8 screws, and I've refoamed at least 50 of them, including several which were paired with each of the 3 tweeter styles).

All EPI 8" woofers except those used in the 601/602 are 8 ohm impedance. With 2 in a cabinet there are only 2 choices. Wire them in parallel for 4 ohms or in series for 16 ohms. Regardless of what Huw's site says, 2-module versions like the 180 can't be 8 ohms. Take a look at the 202/250 schematics. One of them has a series/parallel switch for 16/4 ohms. The 180 schematic matches the 4 ohm switch position.

The original Masonite tweeters do not have ferofluid but they have larger magnets and are considered by many, myself included, to be the best version.

I bought EPI 180's new from a store in 1979. The heavy set. I know what I'm talking about and yes they did build a 4 and 8 ohm 180 and yes there is a heavier 180 with thicker walls and heavier grill covers. Yes some EPI 180 boxes as well as 100 did have 4 screws. Yes there are 180's with thicker baffles where the screw holes are screwed into a second baffle of 1" particle board and theirs a 180 baffle that has a single 1" thick baffle that has been countersink with the woofer basket being screwed into the recessed part of the particle board rather then the second 1" layer of particle board on the heavier 180 model in the earlier cabinets. The Masonite tweeters are inferior in that they do not extend flat to 20,000kHz though you might still like them better then the improved version with the gold rings and that's fine. But just because you like them better doesn't make them better. The EPI speakers with Masonite tweeters generally are not in higher demand then the speakers with the gold rings. If you can find a 70's EPI speaker in the gold rings before EPI started cheapening the cabinets and then switched the tweeters entirely then those are preferred to the Masonite by most buyers and pull in more money on ebay. You can check the Masonite tweeter cost versus the non Masonite tweeter either gold ringed or the black metal plate with the epicure on them and see that those tweeters that extend to 20,000kHz sell for twice the price as the Masonite and not many people ever buy the Masonite. Again that doesn't mean someone might not prefer the Masonite better or that speakers with Masonite tweeters are inferior. The gold ringed and black metal plate epicures do represent an improvement in the inverted dome tweeter which is why EPI made them. Later EPI bought out by a new owner redesigned the tweeter to a dome in their T/E line. I thought that they got away from their heritage and that new tweeter was a step back. Just my opinion. On the other questions I will provide the photos and documentation to prove all of it but I don't have the time at the moment. Stay tuned. I realize these things I allege need proof and I will provide it. Thanks.

 

[watchdog005]

Lots of misinformation flying around in this thread IMO... All 3 sets of 180's that I've owned had gold ring tweeters, including the unmolested pair that I bought from the original owner last year. All 3 sets had 8 screws for each woofer and were just under 40# each. (I've never seen an 8" EPI woofer that didn't have 8 screws, and I've refoamed at least 50 of them, including several which were paired with each of the 3 tweeter styles).

All EPI 8" woofers except those used in the 601/602 are 8 ohm impedance. With 2 in a cabinet there are only 2 choices. Wire them in parallel for 4 ohms or in series for 16 ohms. Regardless of what Huw's site says, 2-module versions like the 180 can't be 8 ohms. Take a look at the 202/250 schematics. One of them has a series/parallel switch for 16/4 ohms. The 180 schematic matches the 4 ohm switch position.

The original Masonite tweeters do not have ferofluid but they have larger magnets and are considered by many, myself included, to be the best version.

I would like to add I had a two hour conversation with the late Henry Kloss that included a great deal of talk about the 180. I'm not saying I know all there is to know about all of the speakers EPI made but the 180 I have done extensive research on and I have owned 5 sets and only twice did I end up with the heavier set, in 1979 and a few years ago. I sold the others as I felt they were good but not as good. I have one of the heavier sets all refoamed and with the original gold rings. There was a small window to buy the heavier set with the gold rings as most were built with Masonite tweeters pre 1979 or made with the gold rings from 1981 until it was discontinued. So there was less then 2 years of manufacturing with the heavier made cabinets with heavier grill covers and gold ring tweeters that extended flat to 20,000kHz. Those are hard to find. They made much more of the lighter cheaper ones then either the heavy cabinet Masonite pre 1979 or the heavy cabinet gold ringed tweeter 4 ohm design which quickly gave way to the lighter cabinets that were wired at 8 ohms. I talked to Huw and he told me that he can sell me the rebuilt crossovers he makes wired in a series parallel just as he can make woofers with foam or rubber surround.

 

[satellite65]

It is not possible to wire two 8 ohm woofers to yield 8 ohms.

 

[watchdog005]

It is not possible to wire two 8 ohm woofers to yield 8 ohms.

Depends on if they are wired in parallel or series. In parallel they it's like using main and remotes on your receiver to hook up four 8 ohm speakers. The amp will see it as 4 ohms or even lower at certain frequencies since an 8 ohm rating is average over the entire frequency range of the speaker and it can be higher or lower at certain frequencies. Sometimes an 8 ohm speaker can have a dip to say 5 ohms at say 800Hz divide that in half with two more speakers and you will get a low of 2.5 at that frequency which could cause problems in many cheaper amplifiers. Hooking them up in series is like running Christmas lights in a series. The resistance does drop in half. There are some giant speaker systems that have 30 tweeters. If you wired those all in parallel with say 15 woofers you would have practically a short circuit. They need to be run in a series or the resistance has to be corrected in the crossover or a combination of both unless you have an amplifier that can run below 0.1 ohms and close to a short circuit. I'm going to clear this up once in for all by contacting Winslow Burhoe first by email. I was going to call him but I rather have his response in writing first. After I get that I'm going to call and talk to him because this has been bugging me for a long time. Manufacturers protect themselves by that little note at the bottom of the spec sheet which says specifications can change anytime without notice. I imagine they had to choose between raising the price after 1980, making them lighter to save cost, or discontinuing them which they ended up doing in 1982. Their most popular speaker the 100 weighed 25 pounds and I image they wanted to concentrate on marketing that speaker longer which they did. Their profit margins were higher on those, they sold many of them versus the 180, and the weight and size were much smaller then the 180 thus much cheaper to ship by getting many more of them on a truck.

 

[classic carl]

Lots of misinformation flying around in this thread IMO... All 3 sets of 180's that I've owned had gold ring tweeters, including the unmolested pair that I bought from the original owner last year. All 3 sets had 8 screws for each woofer and were just under 40# each. (I've never seen an 8" EPI woofer that didn't have 8 screws, and I've refoamed at least 50 of them, including several which were paired with each of the 3 tweeter styles).

All EPI 8" woofers except those used in the 601/602 are 8 ohm impedance. With 2 in a cabinet there are only 2 choices. Wire them in parallel for 4 ohms or in series for 16 ohms. Regardless of what Huw's site says, 2-module versions like the 180 can't be 8 ohms. Take a look at the 202/250 schematics. One of them has a series/parallel switch for 16/4 ohms. The 180 schematic matches the 4 ohm switch position.

The original Masonite tweeters do not have ferofluid but they have larger magnets and are considered by many, myself included, to be the best version.

I have a pair of EPI 200C and both EPI 8" woofers use 4 screws. I also have a spare 8" EPI woofer and it has 8 screw holes.

I would like to add I had a two hour conversation with the late Henry Kloss that included a great deal of talk about the 180.

Henry Kloss did not design the EPI line of speakers. Winslow Burhoe did, although, they may have been at AR together at the same time. The departure from the original masonite tweeter was the reason why Burhoe left EPI. The gold ring tweeter was a redesigned, cheaper version of the original tweeter, that according to Burhoe, was inferior to the original tweeter.

 

[classic carl]

I just picked up a pair of 180s today on the local CL for $50. All original drivers, refoamed about 4 years ago. The woofers have 4 screws, not 8. The grille fabric is toast but all drivers work. The vinyl cabs need to be cleaned up, but not in bad shape. I'll recover the grills if I don't use them in the garage. I'm not home yet. I had to stop for beer. I sold two pairs of speakers this morning for $300, so this purchase was justified.

 

[classic carl]

I'm listening to these 180 speakers now. They are on the floor for lack of a better location for now. They sound very good. Not as good as my recapped 200C but they are close.

The serial numbers are fairly close, but these cabinets have two different types of jacks on the back. I have some 5-way binding posts that I'll install when I change the caps. In the one photo, I had to put some electrical tape over the tweeter switch lever to keep the bananas from touching the lever..

 

[watchdog005]

I

I have a pair of EPI 200C and both EPI 8" woofers use 4 screws. I also have a spare 8" EPI woofer and it has 8 screw holes.



Henry Kloss did not design the EPI line of speakers. Winslow Burhoe did, although, they may have been at AR together at the same time. The departure from the original masonite tweeter was the reason why Burhoe left EPI. The gold ring tweeter was a redesigned, cheaper version of the original tweeter, that according to Burhoe, was inferior to the original tweeter.

I know that Burhoe designed them in 1974 but Burhoe left EPI in 1975 so whatever changes happened to the 180 in later designs of the model I'm not sure what Winslow would know and what he wouldn't know after he left. The 180 was manufactured until 1982 which is 7 years after Burhoe left EPI. Henry Kloss did not design the 180 speaker or the early designs, those were Burhoe, but he did work at EPI for awhile after Burhoe left and he has extensive knowledge of the EPI early designs and what changes were made to them after Burhoe left EPI in 1975. As far as the reduction to 4 screws in the 8 inch woofer used in many designs, that was done later in the newer versions and I was told by Kloss that it was done because they felt 8 screws were over kill and not really needed. So the later models used the 4 screws. I think that you will find that most if not all of the pre 1980 woofer drivers used 8 screws. Now there many very well be a pre 1979/80 EPI speaker that you can find with 4 screws and that might be an anomaly or someone bought a newer 4 screw woofer that was refoamed and put it a speaker that originally had 8 screws.

 

[watchdog005]

The grill fabric is toast most likely because you have a newer model EPI 180 manufactured after 1979. They changed the fabric to a cheaper one unlike the early models that have heavy woven fabric which was glued to a heavy mason board type material. Not only was the fabric cheapened but the grill board was cheaper and tended to crack around the woofer hole near the edge of the grill where there wasn't much grill board between the woofer hole and the edge of the grill.The early EPI 180's were also at least 9 pounds heavier and some might be even heavier then that as you get to the older ones as those were built in heavier cabinets with thicker front baffles, and from what Henry Kloss told me in my phone conversation with him many years ago some of them had lead lined in the interior of the speaker walls. Makes sense that you have the 4 screw woofers as those were also used in the post 1979 models.

 

[watchdog005]

I

I'm listening to these 180 speakers now. They are on the floor for lack of a better location for now. They sound very good. Not as good as my recapped 200C but they are close.

The serial numbers are fairly close, but these cabinets have two different types of jacks on the back. I have some 5-way binding posts that I'll install when I change the caps. In the one photo, I had to put some electrical tape over the tweeter switch lever to keep the bananas from touching the lever..

If you can find the heavier cabinet EPI 180 with the gold ringed tweeters those are the best sounding ones. I would even prefer to have the heavier model EPI M180 with the mason orange surround tweeter over the newer light cheaper cabinet EPI 180 with gold ringed tweeters as the cabinets do matter more then the upgraded tweeter matters. Some even say they prefer the sound of the mason tweeter and that might be because they heard the mason tweeter in the heavy cabinet and the gold ringed tweeter in a lighter EPI made cabinet and what they are actually hearing is a better cabinet with less resonance and a heavier cabinet that allows better stability which relates to more focused sound. The heavy 180 with the upgrade gold rings are harder to find because soon after they put that tweeter in the 180 they cheapened the cabinets.

 

[watchdog005]

Funny after EPI began to lighten the EPI 180 down to about 37lbs ater 1979 or 80 they continued to list the speaker at 61lbs. I'm not sure if 61lbs was shipping weight icluding boxes and packing material or if the early M180 closer you get to 1974 actually were that heavy at one time. Even my heavy EPI 180's with the better grill covers and thicker front baffle weigh only 47 pounds. The original packing material was quite heavy I know.

 

[saea501]

I


I know that Burhoe designed them in 1974 but Burhoe left EPI in 1975 so whatever changes happened to the 180 in later designs of the model I'm not sure what Winslow would know and what he wouldn't know after he left. The 180 was manufactured until 1982 which is 7 years after Burhoe left EPI. Henry Kloss did not design the 180 speaker or the early designs, those were Burhoe, but he did work at EPI for awhile after Burhoe left and he has extensive knowledge of the EPI early designs and what changes were made to them after Burhoe left EPI in 1975. As far as the reduction to 4 screws in the 8 inch woofer used in many designs, that was done later in the newer versions and I was told by Kloss that it was done because they felt 8 screws were over kill and not really needed. So the later models used the 4 screws. I think that you will find that most if not all of the pre 1980 woofer drivers used 8 screws. Now there many very well be a pre 1979/80 EPI speaker that you can find with 4 screws and that might be an anomaly or someone bought a newer 4 screw woofer that was refoamed and put it a speaker that originally had 8 screws.

You have made many posts here and I have read through most of them. You have many incorrect statements above. You mention the the 'gold ring' tweeters being better than the original masonites because the gold rings 'extend flat to 20K'. Where did you get this information?

Also, Henry Kloss never worked for EPI to my knowledge. You state that Henry Kloss personally told you that EPI woofers only needed 4 screws because 8 were overkill? About the furthest thing from an audio engineer's mind is the number of screws around the perimeter of a woofer. That sounds more like something the bean counters would come up with. Again, where did you get this information? I would love to see some substantiation of these statements.

You state that Winslow left because of a disagreement over the tweeter design in 1975. This is not correct. He left the company later, about 1977 and he was more or less pushed out. George Samuels and some key EPI people left EPI in 1975 to found Genesis Physics and this was in fact due to a disagreement over the tweeter design. Maybe this is what you are thinking about.

 

[classic carl]

You have made many posts here and I have read through most of them. You have many incorrect statements above. You mention the the 'gold ring' tweeters being better than the original masonites because the gold rings 'extend flat to 20K'. Where did you get this information?

Also, Henry Kloss never worked for EPI to my knowledge. You state that Henry Kloss personally told you that EPI woofers only needed 4 screws because 8 were overkill? About the furthest thing from an audio engineer's mind is the number of screws around the perimeter of a woofer. That sounds more like something the bean counters would come up with. Again, where did you get this information? I would love to see some substantiation of these statements.

You state that Winslow left because of a disagreement over the tweeter design in 1975. This is not correct. He left the company later, about 1977 and he was more or less pushed out. George Samuels and some key EPI people left EPI in 1975 to found Genesis Physics and this was in fact due to a disagreement over the tweeter design. Maybe this is what you are thinking about.

I was waiting for you to chime in. Having worked there, you have more knowledge than most of us put together regarding EPI. It was I who mentioned that Winslow left over the design of the new tweeter. I obviously recalled incorrectly what I thought I read here somewhere about that. I was pretty sure that he disagreed with the direction that the bean counters were taking the company. I assumed that the tweeter was part of that reason. I also thought that Henry Kloss never worked at EPI. As I mentioned earlier, I believe both may have worked at AR, but I have no idea if they worked there at the same time.

These 180s that I picked sound pretty sweet. I haven't opened them yet. The woofers are refoamed already. I'll eventually replace the cap, install better binding posts, and replace the grill cloth.

 

[saea501]

I was waiting for you to chime in. Having worked there, you have more knowledge than most of us put together regarding EPI. It was I who mentioned that Winslow left over the design of the new tweeter. I obviously recalled incorrectly what I thought I read here somewhere about that. I was pretty sure that he disagreed with the direction that the bean counters were taking the company. I assumed that the tweeter was part of that reason. I also thought that Henry Kloss never worked at EPI. As I mentioned earlier, I believe both may have worked at AR, but I have no idea if they worked there at the same time.

These 180s that I picked sound pretty sweet. I haven't opened them yet. The woofers are refoamed already. I'll eventually replace the cap, install better binding posts, and replace the grill cloth.

I'm sure Winslow disagreed with the direction the company was headed as the new direction did not include him. When George left EPI to start Genesis the aluminum tweeter material was one of the contributing factors behind their leaving. It's interesting to note that the aluminum tweeter never saw production in the ensuing years. Genesis stayed with the pheolic material. Which is a reason I am concerned that Huw Powell, apparently, is using the aluminum. His earlier version with that material was a little edgy for my taste. The original tweeter material was smoother over the entire spectrum. The aluminum had a little bite to it.

Henry and Winslow both, at one point, worked at KLH and AR. But, like you, Carl, I don't know if they were ever in the same place at the same time. That would have been an interesting conversation to hear....those two.

 

[saea501]

Looks like it. Key is the heavier woven grills and the woofers have 8 screws. Odds are these are the heavier version. Gold rings mean they extend to 20,000 kHz and are liquid ferro fluid cooled. The metal plates that say Epicure on them also extend to 20,000 kHz and are ferro fluid cooled as well, I believe. I'm not saying the older ones with the orange surrounds are not good. I never heard them. I don't think they are ferro fluid cooled.

They were indeed.

Can you please state the source of your information regarding the 'gold rings' extending flat to 20K?

 

[saea501]

I own EPI 100V, 100W in walnut, NHT 2.9, Two pairs of Super Ones one set still unopened in the boxes, Super Zero's B&W302, B&W LM1 made for autos and boats, (the rare heavy ones) with kevlar drivers, Celestion SL6si, Celestion SL6S, PSB Alpha B, Two PSB Subsonic 5's, One PSB 15" Subsonic 7 and two PSB Subsonic 1 Subwoofers, 2 Sunfire Subwoofer Bob Carver Signature dual 12's in 13 inch cube , A very nice Velodyne 18" Sub that would lift your hous off it's foundation. Looking to get a Polk and Mission bookshelf I'm interested in. I have this urge to hear a good pair of Vandersteen 1& 2 and up. I always wanted to own a floor standing B&W Matrix 801 and KEF 105 or Model one I have listened to in show rooms. I'm new to posting here but no way new to the audiophile industry. Purchased my first setup when I was 17 years old in 1979. I read this thread years ago but wasn't registered to respond to it so sorry to the original poster for the way too late response. Looking forward to getting to know the crowd here. If anybody needs any info on the gear I own or any audio gear go ahead and ask. We can move the discussion of non EPI 180 gear to other threads so it's not off topic. I'm an old moderator of MSN Money message boards so I know that too much off topic isn't tolerated. Been reading Stereophile and other audio magazines for decades, bought and sold lots of audio equipment over the years and have lots of info to share and many questions about your experiences with certain equipment like the 201's I never heard that satellite65 knows about. I never have listened to the EPI original inverted dome with the orange surround found in the M series. Anyone know how it compares to the newer inverted dome? I notice that it rolls off before it gets to 20,000 rated to 18,000 where the newer inverted dome reaches flat to 20,000kHz. I have always been reluctant to buy the older EPI M series due to those tweeters not reaching to 20,000kHz.

What are you referring to here....'M series"? There was no M series to my knowledge. If you are referring to, for example, the M100 or M201....that simply means model. It is not part of the model designation.