Equalizer connection question

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by bradmcl, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

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    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    I don't think so. I believe you need a full tape monitor circuit. The monitor button and tape in/out connections are to replace the tape monitor circuit the Kube uses.
     
  2. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

    Messages:
    22
    Many thanks. Much appreciated for such a quick response, but I can't give up yet! The Kef manufacturer instructions for set up state:

    "The tape monitor switch (on the Kube Equaliser) replaces the function of the amplifier's tape monitor switch in cases where the Kube is connected in the tape monitor loop of the amplifier"

    The amp has a 'record out' and a 'tape in', which I was hoping would connect into the Kube's 'signal in' and 'signal out' respectively, as per the instructions, assuming the amp connection provides a source signal for recording for other sources in use. If I wanted to record.

    I'm not using any tape/digital recorder, so don't need this facility, which could be fed from the Kube, which had its own tape in and out.

    The Kef instructions also say "for the Kube to operate correctly, the amplifier's monitor switch must be 'on'.

    If the amp hasn't got a switch, i was hoping the Kube switch does the job?

    It probably shows that I haven't an engineering background so apologise for that, but I'm trying!

    I've done lots of reading but not much out there, so I'm still confused, especially about the role of monitor switches and their purpose in the above.

    I appreciated it's painful, but a little more help really would be greatly appreciated. Before I sell the Kefs or buy a vintage amp!

    Thanks in anticipation...
     
  3. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

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    Location:
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    If your integrated/receiver does not have a Tape Monitor loop with a Tape Monitor switch the one on the Kube will be no help. I would keep the KEF's and buy a vintage or new amplifier/receiver with a true tape monitor switch.

    When a true tape monitor loop is engaged any source selected will be available via the regular output path from your receiver/amplifier. KEF speakers that use the Kube are IMO exceptionally good sounding speakers.
     
  4. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

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    22
    Thanks again. I've tried the speakers without the KUBE and they sound pretty good!! I guess I don't know if I am missing anything but the Kef recommendation is it must be included, for better bass extension and go enable minor alterations to H and LF.

    I found the stuff below on another forum - it seems to make sense. Do you agree with the explanation?

    "I guess I failed to communicate why your receiver does not have a tape monitor. Tape IN is just a normal input for your receiver. When selected, its signal goes to Tape Out. Not your CD, not your phono signal, just the Tape IN goes to Tape Out. If the EQ is connected to Tape Out and you select CD, then the Tape out would output the CD output, and you have no way to listen to the output of your EQ. If you then select Tape IN to listen to your EQ, then you just changed its input from CD to Tape, which is effectively itself and your EQ lost the CD. Tape Monitors used to let you select a source, output it to Tape Out, then listen to your Tape IN without impacting the output of Tape.
    To INSERT an equalizer into a circuit, one must have the ability to
    1) take the line level signal out of the receiver's signal path, and then
    2) INSERT the equalizer into the circuit and then, finally
    3) RETURN the equalized signal BACK into the receiver's signal path.

    This was happily controlled in days of old by tape MONITOR LOOPS. These were controlled by a switch on the front panel which would either keep the signal in the receiver or, when pushed, send it OUT of the receiver's signal path via the "tape out" and BACK INTO the receiver's signal path through the tape input. You knew you had a "tape monitor loop" on your unit when you pushed the tape monitor button with no equalizer and the signal disappeared. Simply having a tape out and a tape in does not mean you have the required "monitor loop", just two unrelated inputs and outputs."
    Now, does your receiver have a "tape monitor" button on front, or not? If not, you're boned. The older vintage gear had a tape monitor loop so that you could use three head recorders, that allowed off tape monitoring. So the source was always at the tape out, if the tape monitorloop switch was to source then you heard the source from the speakers. If you depressed the switch and the tape deck was set to output the play back head during record, then you listed directly to your tape recording from the tape as it was being made. That way you heard problems right away, and could for instance correct tape saturation before it ruined a whole recording. That same loop could run and equalizer and the equalizer could also run the tape recorder. You could buy a really nice vintage pre amp and amp.
    Your other alternative is a an external amp, with the Equalizer ahead of the amp. There are good vintage options out there, or new units.
    If you can rise to it a Quad 34 or 44 preamp with either a 303 or 405 2 power ampwould do you proud. You now have to be a bit patient to find one, but you would not go wrong.

    I think I get it if that is all correct.

    In the same post, it was also suggested that s single source, so my laptop into my Qute DAC could link straight to the Eq and then this connects to line in of amp. Would this work? I use no other line source so happy to commit to a single option.

    Thanks again for your patience
     
  5. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

    Messages:
    22
    Guess this, as you have, also sets me straight!

    "Treat any KEF Kube as if it were a tape recorder.

    So connect the Kube "outs" to the tape "ins" and the "ins" to the tape "outs".

    If your amplifier/reciever does not have a tape monitor facility you're not quite knackered.

    You're then limited to splitable pre-power sections treating the Kube as a graphic equalizer (sic) and you'll have to hope the pre output does not overload the Kube's input. If it does you'll have to start playing with inline attenuators.

    If you don't have a tape monitor switch or splitable pre/power sections you're knackered until you get another amplifier with a tape monitor facility."
     
  6. stereoguy70

    stereoguy70 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Location:
    Salem, NH USA
    From Advent's manual for their "Frequency Balance Control"....aka....EQ:

    s-l1600 (3).jpg

    This is the correct way to hook up an EQ, ANY EQ. Nuff said. ;)
     
  7. the skipper

    the skipper Amateur Curmudgeon Subscriber

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    Actually, this is not an issue. The tape out gets the input signal it it's maximum level. Although they re called preAMPLIFIERS, this is a misnomer. They actually attenuate the incoming signal as needed in ir order to obtain a comfortable listening level. If you doubt this,simply plug a CD players line level output directly into a power amp.

    They should actually be be called control units since they select inputs and allow control of the signal level and, in some cases, tone control and other niceties.
     
  8. jetstream

    jetstream Active Member

    Messages:
    348
    If your unit is like this, I see no rec in jacks:
    [​IMG]
     
  9. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

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    Hi, my model is v.1 IMG_0048.JPG
     
  10. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

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    IMG_0049.JPG IMG_0050.JPG And here's the KUBE!
     
  11. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

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    IMG_0051.JPG And the DAC is Chord Qute HD.
     
  12. NRS1964

    NRS1964 New Member

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    22
    I've pretty much resigned myself to 'no go' with existing amp, and starting to think vintage. Another minefield!! But one I like the sound of. Shame cause this amp is a little beauty.
     
  13. jetstream

    jetstream Active Member

    Messages:
    348
  14. jetstream

    jetstream Active Member

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    348
    Do you use only the dac as a source?
     
  15. jetstream

    jetstream Active Member

    Messages:
    348
    Plug the dac in the KUBE "signal in", from "signal out" plug to any input on your amp. Toggle the eq with its "bypass eq" switch, forget the tape monitor. Voila.
     
  16. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    That won't work as the amplifier in question does not have a tape or EPL loop.
     
  17. jetstream

    jetstream Active Member

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    348
    Why you'd need a loop in the suggested scenario? You send the signal from the source to the EQ, not via the amp.
     
  18. twiiii

    twiiii Super Member

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    Location:
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    My question is how do you want to use the EQ? If as a room EQ where you set up and forget it using an analyzer of some type to calibrate the sound. Then you install it in the pre-out/ amp-in jacks. If you are using it to tweak different sources that are compromised and want to make party tapes or disc, etc you connect it in the toe loop. If you get distortion or noise as a result of either hook up you have chosen the wrong EQ that is incompatible with your Sansui. Both my Urei and Crown EQ's have way over 110 db dynamic range so will work anywhere. Other units with only 80 db or so can really compromise your system especially when the system is used with efficient speakers.
     
  19. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

    Messages:
    14,794
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    OK. How do you get the output from the Eq?
     
  20. jetstream

    jetstream Active Member

    Messages:
    348
    Same as in a loop - from signal out.
     

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