Fine tuning a system - midrange seems off

[neevo]

Checking it out at some proper volume today I’m noticing a couple of things:

1) when you’re sat in the middle these LS50’s really sing. Something about vinyl with a tube preamp that adds space too! Slightly toed in too was best I found.
2) the placement if my stereo subs is not working for a central seating position.

I’ll draw up my dimensions a bit and I’d love to see if anyone has some recommendations on where to place the subs as I moved them about a fair bit without much success in the central seated position.

I’m thinking if putting some sticky dots on the carpet so I know where the furniture should go, then draw up the ideal placement for listening so I can move stuff around when the missus and kids are out

 

[sqlsavior]

Congratulations on finding a no-compromise compromise.

2) the placement if my stereo subs is not working for a central seating position

Maybe try the subs behind the two chairs in the picture? If that doesn't work, maybe the "subwoofer crawl" would help. Put a sub on your listening chair, and crawl around to find two spots where the bass is good, then try the subs in those spots. Maybe also try moving the listening chair forward and back, perhaps out of a "null".

 

[neevo]

Maybe try the subs behind the two chairs in the picture? If that doesn't work, maybe the "subwoofer crawl" would help.

That’s their permanent location already. Unfortunately all manner of playing around with their position behind the chairs does nothing for the central listening position. I suspect it’s in a dead zone, it’s not a null point but the warm rich bass you get off to the side is missing and that’s one of the best bits. Will have to keep playing around with it, and have to find some more articles to read about stereo sub placements.

 

[neevo]

I’ve been doing more googling. Not about sub positioning yet but trying to focus on some thoughtful process on where to place my mains. Ran across a thread talking about LS50 placement and it mentioned the Cardas website with some room placements and also a calculator.

So I grabbed the tape measure and set about measuring the room:

Width: 3500mm
Length: 4800mm
Height (Ceiling): 2700mm

The first room (rectangular) suggested to use the width of the room as the key measurement. Then place your mains 27.6% of the room width in from the sides and 44.7% of the room width off the back wall.

That should mean 966mm in from the sides and 1564.5mm off the back wall. That would work as I wouldn’t even have to move the 2 main chairs... just move the stands in front!

I measured up and dropped some markers off the table to show where they should go:



That’s a fair way wider than we had them last night because of how we turned the chairs around. It’s fortunate that the chairs are toed in because it allows the perfect amount of space to get the stands in there with width.

Will be interesting to see what this sounds like.

Funny the Cardas site didn’t mention seating position so I’ll have to work on that one myself. The LS50 thread I was reading though did mention toeing in the speakers to get the best soundstage, with the focal point behind the listeners head.

 

[NAD80]

Nice PG album to listen to. Have a lot of his albums.Once you get the seating position correct, you don't want to move again.

 

[neevo]

Nice PG album to listen to. Have a lot of his albums.Once you get the seating position correct, you don't want to move again.

Yeah its a cracker isn't it! I also have Us on triple LP which I love. What are others you'd recommend? I've quickly listened to a few of his others but they seem to be way more esoteric.

I agree with the seating position and not wanting to move it, unfortunately I will have to do some moving because of the way the room is set up and the missus won't want chairs in weird places. However I am hoping that once I can test some ideas and I land on something that really sings, I can measure it all up and then know exactly where to put stuff, when I do want to do some critical listening

 

[NAD80]

The 4th and 5th (Plays Live) albums. His early albums don't have different titles. Just PG. The one released in Sept 82. Other one I like is the album done with Robert Fripp. "Exposure". Also good albums to listen to is Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon, Pulse, Gilmour's Live in Gdansk, Remember that Night. Golden Earring's Moontan, Switch, Cut. The Naked Truth (recorded in a small club). Icehouse -First 3 albums. Allen Parsons Project- I Robot, Pyramid. Dire Straits- Love over gold. Sarah Mclachan-Mirrorball (live album). This is just some of what I listen to. Check it out on you tube and then pick what you want to get. Allen Parsons (recording engineer for DSOTM) excellent recordings, Dire Straits Stunning recording. Golden Earring love the guitar, drum solos.

 

[neevo]

OK, we're on the same page with music. Pink Floyd and Dire Straits (Love Over Gold is one of my all time favourites)are essential albums in my house and I have a "need" to have them all on vinyl... not reissues if can help it either, the original 12" are best for me. Didn't know about the other Gabriel albums so went on a hunt. Some of them are too weird for me but I found a couple that I'll need to add to the [problem] collection, especially "Passion".

Didn't know about Golden Earring so thanks for that tip (my wife will be less than impressed), I'm listening to their self titled album and track 1 is great with all the guitars!

 

[NAD80]

Some of Golden Earring songs are not short radio edits. Of course Radar Love, Are you receiving me, Vanilla Queen, Twilight Zone, The Devil made me do it, Something heavy going down, Clear night moonlight, Turn the world around, Sleepwalkin', Eight miles high (cover). Have to check out the videos of some of the songs. Been a fan since 73.

 

[neevo]

Ok. Whole family is out. I’m testing these setups.

 

[NAD80]

Sounds fun. Enjoy the music. Did you check out the videos?

 

[neevo]

What videos?

Edit: forget that. I was going through Spotify with some of the suggestions. Some crackers in there.

 

[neevo]

Wow. Reporting in the moment. But it’s amazing what a difference placement makes. I’ll have to put one of the first records back on to see if it’s the placement change or the record itself.

Very interesting.

 

[neevo]

I funnily enough picked up the Allan Parson record on Saturday. Only just twigged it was one of your suggestions.

Sounds like we have very similar taste!

Love Over Gold is one of my favourite sides of vinyl ever I think (Telegraph Road/Private Investigations).

 

[neevo]

Well I can’t get these subs in the right place. Mains are sounding exceptional and I’m so close but everywhere I put the subs it’s either cancelling out or not really getting the full effect.

The chairs are obviously in the wrong place as I suspect the subs should be where they are (or partly).

Might have to compromise and just lust after a proper listening space one day.

Annoyingly when I get up and move the subs (for the thousandth time), I get a teaser of what it could sound like.

 

[NAD80]

Some really good stuff to listen to. Love the Industrial Disease cut. It's getting there on placement for speakers and the seating position. If I come up with any other albums to listen, I will post them here. Gotta think about what next to find.

 

[neevo]

Both my subs are sealed downward facing. They currently have been in every position in front right/left corners behind the chairs and I cannot get them better than their original position:



Annoyingly this is absolutely perfect when the speakers are in their original positions and I’m sitting to one side. I has punch, warmth and they blend with the mains in an alarmingly good way... I just don’t get the benefits of sitting in the centre and enjoying the soundstage

This setup is also crap for the central seating position I’m using temporarily.

I think I need another day of playing around and maybe look to bring the subs right out as my labours today yielded some amazing results with the mains.

 

[neevo]

So I kicked off the day with the mains 966mm in from the sides and tried to get the correct distance from the rear wall, but unfortunately the chairs were in the way. So I progressed anyway, setting them up with a reasonable toe in that aimed just behind the listening position:



It was immediately impressive and I set about playing a load of different music to test it out. The soundstage was wide but something wasn’t quite right. Norah Jones’ vocals were harsh and unnatural, Pink Floyd was nice but seemed to lack some coherence. Overall it was great to listen to the speakers in the correct position but it almost seemed too wide.

I tested straightening the speakers as I was aware that the drivers in the LS50’s are not as critical with toe in, it was better, but still felt unnatural.

So I pulled the speakers in and kept the speakers almost straight (a tiny toe in):



It’s amazing what a fairly minor change will do. The vocals and guitars moved back in to the mix more, much more pleasing! And whilst the mega wide soundstage reduced a bit, it felt much more natural and with some Enya (don’t judge me!) the sounds were all over the room

It also seemed to blend much better with the subwoofers too which was pleasing.

Overall I’d say 9/10 for mains, however only 6/10 overall. Why?

I cannot get the subs in the right place to really unlock their potential. There are places in the room where I get the full effect and really demonstrate how good it could all sound together, but can I get this in the main listening position... no chance

I’ve not taken the subs out from behind the chairs though, so maybe that’s the next days playing.

 

[neevo]

Tried a few more sub placement options this evening. As I was driving home from work I had the idea to test a diagonal room setup which would mean no moving of furniture at all, just move the mains to the seat on one side.

Great in theory but I couldn’t get the subs exactly as I wanted them. It was certainly warmer than the front facing option with subs behind the chairs, but not that much of an improvement where it was really optimised.

As the current options are I find I can get good sub bass (eg I can feel it digging in to the low parts) but the upper range (60-90 in reckon) there is a noticeable gap.

So no closer basically.

I did come across an article from SVS (I think that’s the brand) and they mentioned diagonal corners or mid way along the side walls as optimal for audio sound quality.

So that will be phase 3

 

[neevo]

Tested the subs midway down the side walls today but it’s actually an even bigger hole for the bass than any other setup. I moved them all along the walls too and really couldn’t get anything to sound right. The closest I got was with them tucked up against the chairs (almost the same setup as the subs behind the chairs but the other side of the chairs) but the bass is still not as warm and inviting as when they’re behind the chairs and I’m sat to one side.

I suspect the problem is the big open doorway I have to one rear side wall as it acts as a ported bass cabinet somewhat. The rear wall is also open on two sides:



The fireplace is directly opposite the mains and system so you can see why I can’t get a permanent ideal listening position. The chair on the left is where the bass sounds best to date.

This is the angle to the speakers with the subs behind each chair tucked against the side walls:



So with that in mind I’m going to try and leave the subs where they are and pull the mains out so they are setup for the chair on the side. Really an off centre diagonal setup which I hope the mains still can perform through as they will not be even distances from side walls.