Fisher 400 owners PLEASE READ....IMPORTANT!!!!

Whoa! Arts -- No AX suffix on the OPTs in your unit with that high of a serial number? Any chance that they were replaced at some point?

Dave

Nope,this unit is all original,including tubes.Never been serviced or fiddled with before I received it. And I'm VERY good at spotting fiddling:)
There is another number on the transformers that appears below the first number I gave you: 3946705
These are the numbers visible on the outward-facing end-bells of both transformers.

Also,at the end of the serial #,the letters ''AM'' have been ink-stamped on the chassis; the neatness and tight location say that this was placed before the installation of surrounding components.
 
The EIA code for arts transformers say FOSTER TRANSFORMER made it in MAY of 1967. Curiouser and curiouser........

I'll EDIT the original to request the EIA code on the 1st post.....FISHER may have had more than one supplier for them.
 
Fisher has also used a manufacturer with EIA code 926, although I'm not sure who that is at the moment. Some of their transformers have no markings at all.

With Arts unit employing OPTs bearing the markings of those used in early version units, it would be very interesting to know if they in fact electrically resemble those units as well. If they do, then it seriously begs the question as to why Fisher deviated for a period of time by using transformers of notably different specifications, only to go back to what the product line started with! The only thoughts that come to mind include:

1. Some aspect of inventory reduction, or

2. With (I believe) production of the 400 out-lasting that of the other receivers, was it an attempt to give it some more brawn in the absence of its bigger brothers?

Or, maybe we're all just over thinking this thing, and Fisher used whatever it had -- or could get -- to finish out production on an even keel..........

Likely, we'll never know. Whenever you get back in your Arts, it would be great if you could verify (through measurement) that the transformers in your unit are indeed the same as those used in the early production units.

Dave
 
Gee,this transformer prefix issue seems to be all over the road,kinda like the manuals!
My transformer EIA code correlates with the date codes on other components in the unit.

Can you provide me with what,exactly,are all of the differences between the different transformers?And what motivated the changes? Damn,now you've got me wondering!

I think Dave's last thought (production expediency or supplier lead-times) to be the most likely.
 
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Arts -- This all came to light a few years ago when I was developing an EFB modification for the Fisher 400. In developing a base line of information for that adventure, I found that my unit could not possibly meet the power output specifications published by Fisher for the 400. Measurement of the OPTs in my unit showed them to have a 10.2K primary impedance, while thanks to Audiodon (who sent me a known early version transformer for measurement), it was determined that the early version transformers have a primary impedance of 6450 ohms -- much more in keeping with the loading that 7591/7868 tubes like to see when operated with fixed bias -- and that was the basis for the reduced power output in my unit. Fisher accounted for this change by changing the values used in the NFB networks between the two versions, but otherwise, no other changes were made. However, the higher impedance transformers resulted in some rather precarious operating conditions for the output stage, which all got rolled into the EFB development for resolve. The thread documenting that effort can be found here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/modifying-the-fisher-400-with-efb.509090/

The effort ultimately resulted in another thread that included development of a new power amplifier section (among other things) that along with the EFB application, results in very significant improvements in power amplifier performance and tube life.

Dave
 
10.2K seems awfully high,so no surprise the output was reduced. I wonder if they were considering cathode bias to reduce costs,and somebody jumped the gun and ordered the transformers before final approval? Are all of the later models using the high-impedance versions,or is this just an anomaly that occurs within a certain range of serial numbers?

Dave,I'll have to do some reading on the the EFB,it seems very interesting. I'm in the middle of the fall furnace tune-up at the moment though.....
 
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Arts -- We were all getting quite comfortable with the line of demarcation being established at serial number 48000: Before that point, units employed the lower impedance OPTs (no suffix) and a 3 tube IF strip, while at 48001 and up, the higher impedance OPTs (AX suffix) were installed and the 4 tube IF strip ruled. So it was all going along quite nicely (other than the service manual debacle Larry is trying to sort out here) until YOU showed up with your high serial number non-AX transformers! Now see what a mess you've caused? Just what do have to say for yourself??? :)

Dave
 
Umm...oops?Thanks Dave,LMFAO right now.When I first started reading your post I thought you were PO'd at me.And you owe me a keyboard cleaning!:rflmao:

Seriously,I've repaired and restored a lot of 400's over the years(15+?),and until now I was never even aware of this transformer issue.Sure,some had better output or sounded better/different than others,but I always put that down to manufacturing variances.One of the reasons I like these forums,you can always learn something new!
The manual ''debacle'' (Nice word,by the way.The one I would have used would have got some chuckles and probably a time out from the moderators) on the other hand, has irritated me for a long time. I'll try to contact as many owners as I can in order to provide more data,and maybe cause some more consternation in the process.:smoke:

Cheers, Art
 
Ok,just to be certain I re-checked my 400. The numbers I provided are indeed correct.
One question: Is the AX suffix stamped-in or inked-on?
 
It's stamped on mine as well. Arts, you certainly seem to be a detail person like myself. Like you, I look for the little indicators that might give away the fact as to whether a unit has been worked on previously. After a restoration, I always measure every specification I can, to make sure that what I think is so, really in fact is so. That's what started all of this. Whenever you do have your unit out for service, it really will be a help to know what the primary impedance is of the OPTs in your unit. As much as the folks on this forum enjoy our Fisher pieces, we also enjoy just as much piecing together not only the history of Fisher the man and the company, but also the details of production that cannot always be discerned by a service manual.

Dave
 
I have a 400 and will try to get at it soon, its buried in a box.

A project to restore that I just haven't gotten around to, along with a X202-b which I am looking forward to getting up and running.
 
Dave,it seems we all share much in common here. While the theoretical,technical and practical aspects of electronics are our foundation,the history,the evolution and especially the people who were involved are equally important to us.Although I wasn't planning on it,measuring that primary impedance will go on my to-do list asap.
And yes,I may be a little detail fixated.Must be the German ancestry.....
 
Here's three more:

S/N
15611 T1020-116-1 5-tubes
28378 T1020-116-1 5-tubes
61921 T1020-116-1AX 6-tubes
 
Ok,measured the primary impedance: 10K (+/-) plate to plate referenced to the full 16R secondary. Both channels the same. Negative feedback network is 2K7 & 560PF.
 
For anyone who would like the measure the primary impedance of the output transformers in their amplifier/receiver but are unfamiliar with the process, here is the procedure to do that. The measurement procedure is performed with the unit's power cord UNPLUGGED, and NO LOAD attached (turn any speaker selector switches ON so no internal loads are attached if applicable), while the output tubes can remain installed, but do not need to be.

The minimum equipment needed is a DVM, and an ordinary line cord with an unterminated end. If the line cord has a green wire ground lead, it can be connected to the chassis. Ideally, the hot and neutral leads will have insulated clips installed, but it is not absolutely necessary. Here are the steps then to measure your transformer:

1. DISCONNECT the red transformer lead from the unit and tape it off to isolate it.

2. Connect the hot and neutral leads of the line cord to the plate leads of the transformer being tested. For Fisher equipment, these will ALMOST always be the BLU and BLU/TRACER transformer leads that connect directly to the output tube sockets serving a particular transformer. For units employing 7591 tubes, this will be pin #3 of each output tube socket for the transformer being tested. For units with 7868 tubes, these leads will be connect to pin #9 of each output tube socket. It doesn't matter which transformer lead connects to which line cord lead. Ideally, you will just be able to clip the line cord connections to these terminals, but if your cord doesn't have any clips, then temporarily tack solder them to the terminals.

COMMENT: Do not be concerned about plugging the primary winding of your output transformer into your home's AC power. The transformer routinely "sees" more voltage than this in normal operation. To punctuate this fact, such a voltage impressed upon the primary winding of a typical 7581/7868 output transformer will only cause the secondary to deliver slightly over 2 watts RMS into any secondary terminal with a rated load impedance attached. Transformers for 6BQ5 class tubes will deliver even less power. Heck, I listen to Deep Purple's "Hush" with a heck of a lot more power than that! Also, do not be concerned that the test is made with no load attached. Driving the transformer primary from the low impedance source of the AC power grid is very much different than driving it from the much higher impedance source of the output tube plates.

3. Check that your connections are good, and the scenario conditions are met, and then, plug the line cord into the wall socket. With line voltage now available inside the unit at the OPT connections, exercise ALL appropriate caution as you proceed.

4. Measure the value of the AC line voltage applied to the OPT primary winding, and record it.

5. Measure the value of the AC voltage transformed into the full 16 ohm secondary winding. For virtually all Fisher equipment this will be the BLK and YELLOW leads. Do NOT assume that the BLK lead is connected to the chassis -- often it is not. Therefore, connect your meter leads directly to the BLK and YELLOW leads where they connect into the unit to make your measurement, and record the result. Unplug the line cord connected to the transformer.

6. Math: Divide the voltage measured on the secondary winding into the line voltage measured that was applied to the primary winding. The result will be the "turns ratio" of the transformer. Example. 6.00 vac measured on the secondary winding divided into 120.0 vac applied to the primary winding = a Turns Ratio of 20.

7. Square the turns ratio, and then multiply that product by the rated impedance of the secondary winding that was being measured in step 5. In this case, that would be 16. Therefore, in this example, 20X20 = 400 X 16 = 6400. The primary impedance of the transformer in this example then is 6400 ohms, since impedance is equal to the square of the turns ratio of the transformer. However, that is only true if the secondary impedance is 1 ohm, which of course is not the case, so after the turns ratio has been squared, it must then be multiplied by the impedance that the secondary winding actually represents.

8. Disconnect your line cord from the plate leads and reconnect the RED B+ transformer lead, which will return the unit to normal operation.

With this information then, you can determine the primary impedance of any unknown transformer, as long as you have good information as to what the secondary winding was designed to represent impedance wise.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
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