FISHER 400 RECEIVER

Discussion in 'Fisher' started by rudpra, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

    Messages:
    171
    Bought a fisher 400 receiver is in very good condition, with all tubes been fisher minus one in the back that is a Sylvania ,now whats the best way to follow (all I have are solid state 1st tube) in bringing it back to its original state . Should I go with a restoration parts kit and would be the best kit,need guidance,its a beautiful piece...here are some photos.......thanks...
     

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  2. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    Blank
     
  3. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    1st off, what is your level of competence with regard to electronics? Complete nOOb, have done a few SS, Tech level, Master Tech, GOD? If you've never gone inside of a unit before, I would recommend that you box it up and send to a competent shop that has experience with FISHER 400's and it's nuances. NOT ALL SHOPS are EQUAL.

    There are a couple of basic kits out there, but they DO NOT cover all of the items needed to even bring it up to it's 1966-67 level of operation. (you have a late model, serial > 48001). In any event you'll have to purchase some electrolytics, resistors, CAN CAPS (or lytics to replace the sections underneath.) And a few other sundry parts that we can get into later. There are Safety and reliability parts that should be installed to increase tube life and unit longevity.
    We can get into that later.

    METALBONE makes the most complete and easiest kit out there for a basic refresh.

    Jim McShane can make up a kit for you using higher grade parts and is more complete than Metalbone's. If you have small kids around the house I would not recommend this kit as the can cap replacements are stacked on the outside with no way to insulate the Hi Voltage terminals from Kids/curious adults. You can ask to NOT get the CAN CAP REPLACEMENT lytics, and go with the rest of the kit. Then replace/rehab the can's yourself.

    Stay away from anything by TubeTycoon/FISHER DOC / FISHER RADIO CORP. Let's just say that the kits from TubeTycoon, I wouldn't put in my worst enemies Dog's 400.

    As for the Can Cap's, in no particular order;
    1.) You can restuff them with Pencil type electrolytics
    2.) Purchase CE CAN CAPS from AES and then try and fit them in with extra lytics underneath to finalize it. The AES caps will have most of the sections but there are no direct replacements for the 400.
    3.) Purchase custom built to spec Can Caps. Hayseed Hamfest makes direct replacement DROP IN, plug and play, CAN CAPS. They can be gotten for a few $$ less than the CE CAN's. (Still over $100 for the set of 3 tho). The Exterior shell is differently shaped from the OEM caps. You may or may not like them.
    4.) Disconnect the can's on top, and use individual electrolytic caps underneath where you can put them. (this is the least recommended option.

    Get the 48001and up manual and start by identifying the parts in it corresponding to the schematic. Identify and mark the POWER SUPPLY,. Main Amplifier section, Phase Inverter section, Pre-amp Section, Phono Section, Tuner Section, and the Multiplexer Section. ID as many parts as you possibly can.

    If/When you get your parts, plan on rebuilding the power supply 1st. Without the correct Volts/amps/watts the unit won't work to expectations. Then start at the amp and work back toward the inputs. TEST after each section or group of parts. I would recommend you test after each 10 parts. That way you have a starting point where it ran last and only 10 parts to check if something is wrong.

    There are tons' of 400 rehab/restore threads on here. Suggest you start reading, especially anything from Dave Gillespie. He's the undisputed top tech here, and the basis for a lot of the upgrades/mods for the 400.

    If you feel that you bit off more than you chew, there are guys here who can do the restore for you. Suggest you add your location to your profile (county /state is fine) so you can get someone fairly local.

    Look to spend about $125.-$250 in parts (depending on whether you get separate lytics or complete cans) for a "COMPLETE" upgrade rebuild. This does not include tubes.

    As for the tubes, the LEFT MOST 7868 looks to have almost no getter left. It still could be good, or it may be near dead, be gassy, or just didn't get a good getter flash when built. All of the 7868's were made by GE or Sylvania( IIRC), and rebranded by the radio manufacturers. I would get them tested for shorts, gas, and gm at minimum. They still may be good as testing mules.

    The only new stock 7868 tube being made is a EH7868. BUT there is a slight problem with them. The pins are slightly larger in diameter than the originals. Which means that the socket pin retainers in the holes get enlargened and the original tubes won't fit tightly in the sockets. The other option is to try and find a quad of good matched used 7868 old stock (NO SUCH THING AS NEW OLD STOCK with these tubes). Installing an adjustable bias controller (IBAM or IBBA) is a good idea for any tubes you do decide on . It can match the tubes and balance them in pairs (which is needed here anyway) giving you longer life to the tubes in it now. Which means a unmatched quad can be used now.

    Anyway. Open it up and take some flash pictures of the inside and post them up. Then we can get better idea o what you are up against. Who knows, you may have a Virgin, or a totally upgraded unit. But most likely somewhere in between.

    Larry
     
  4. bhamham

    bhamham Super Member

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    Congrats on getting a beautiful 400!
     
  5. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

    Messages:
    171
    will get photos tonight.....thanks
     
  6. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Here are the photos for what appears to be original unit
     

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  7. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    20,127
    Location:
    Glen Burnie Md.
    She's a VIRGIN. All the way down to the Silicon Diodes or bridge outboard of the BIAS dual cap. Even has Frako AXIAL electrolytics (Danger Will Robinson!) Theres a blue one just below the DUAL bias can cap, and it looks like it's ends are already bulging. There is also a gold colored one at the mpx (C210) but I can't tell if it's bulging or not.

    Can you give us the Serial # and the nubers off the OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS please. It's for a research project.
     
  8. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

    Messages:
    171
    Will do....
     
  9. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Standing with FM in front the right output transformer #S are T1020-116-2AX 352622 //// LEFT is T1020-116-352626 power transformer is T1020-124A-352635
    the unit Serial 73171 AM hope this helps.... also there is a (The fisher model MPX 65 on chassis).............
     
  10. bhamham

    bhamham Super Member

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    Location:
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    You sure there's no 'AX' designation on the left OT?
     
  11. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

    Messages:
    20,127
    Location:
    Glen Burnie Md.
    I'm curious about the LEFT channel OT. Can you recheck for the "AX" on the model #, please.

    According to the EIA CODES The O.T. were made by Magnetic Windings Co.; Easton PA, during the 22nd and 26th weeks of 1966. The Power Transformer was made by the Same Co during the 35th week of 1966. So your's is a 1967 model.


    Can you tell if either of the O.T.'s have been replaced. The Date codes look right, but the model #'s don't. Are you familiar with how to check the impedance on the output transformers? If not, Dave's instructions here will help. http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ase-read-important.682273/page-2#post-9121835.

    There were two different version transformers used in the 400. The T-1020-116-1 and -2 was used in the EARLY (Serian < 48001) version and had a primary impedance of 6.4Kohms. The T-1020-116-1AX and 2ax were used in the LATE (Serial #>48001) and had a primary of 10Kohms. This thread is the basis of my questions. If you have transformers that have different primary impedances, there can be problems. I don't know all the problems, but it may sound like crap. So the thing to do is to make sure that the support circuits match the measured impedance of the primary winding of the Output Transformers. In your case it could be that there is nothing wrong with it, as it's been shown that some late late units have non AX O.T.'s that have the late impedance.

    Measure the impedance of both transformers. Then measure the NFB Resistors, EARLY (R90-91 3.9K) and Capacitors (C60-61 330pf); LATE (R113-114 2.7K)and (C91-92 560pf) and post the results.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  12. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Sorry the Left has T1020-116-1AX -352626 so yes it has an AX.... and the right is T1020-116-/2AX
    -352622.......Again hope this help,thanks/ and the O.T. appear to be all originals
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  13. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

    Messages:
    20,127
    Location:
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    That's good. So your's is a totally documented late model with part numbers as documented in the manuals.
    The manual you will use is the 48001 and up. http://www.fisherconsoles.com/non console manuals/fisher 400 beg 48001 sm.pdf

    If you go with either a METALBONE Kit or Jim McShane Kit, specify the Serial # as there are some small differences between the Early and Late models. Once you get the parts, match them up with the schematic and mark with a piece of tape with the part # on it. Take lots' of close up pictures from a number of directions for each major section and most smaller part sections (some are part dense and some are just one part with 2 ends). GO SLOW and methodical. Don't jump around from one end to the other and back. Don't stop in the middle of a piece for dinner, or other interruptions if you can help it. Finish it out and mark it done.
     
  14. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

    Messages:
    171
    Thanks for all the info, its a gem of info , will try post Christmas restoration, but just in case who can you also recommend that's , reputable for the job //// and also anybody in Georgia....
     
  15. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Metal bone has 2 kits a $65 and also a $85 any difference as to which to go with ? 85
     
  16. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    I'm about an hour north of Atlanta if that helps........

    Dave
     
  17. AlTinkster92

    AlTinkster92 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Very nice looking 400 for sure, congrats! Al
     
  18. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Thanks,Al
     
  19. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Metalbone kits best one to get $60 or the $85
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  20. rudpra

    rudpra Active Member

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    171
    Dave whats the best way to get a hold you for help.....thanks
     

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